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Old 12-20-2012, 01:21 PM   #481
PatNY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fjtorres View Post

And the most likely outcome isn't on your list: sooner or later, they will (likely) settle the case. Out of sheer exhaustion. Or the need to deal with a whole 'nother war:
I hope they don't settle. Not just because I think the verdict is extremely flawed, but because I would like to see this go to the higher courts where some important patent issues could potentially get sorted out. Patent regulations and practices in this country are a mess, and anything that might bring some clarity is welcome.

Moreover, they've come this far, and invested so much time and effort. It would go to waste if they settled now.

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Old 12-20-2012, 01:28 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by Graham View Post
I see that Samsung have also just pulled their own lawsuits seeking injunctions against Apple in Europe:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20773678
Graham, it should be noted that the lawsuit was not pulled and this is not a retreat by Samsung. They are still going ahead with the infringement suit against Apple and suing for compensation. They have only dropped the request to ban the sale of certain Apple products.

The patent wars are hardly over.

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Old 12-20-2012, 01:29 PM   #483
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Ahhh, but in this case "Japan" has won the war, even if they might eventually lose the court battle.

--Pat
Your obliviousness is an amusing spectacle. While every informed observer understood that litigation would not change anything fundamental in the technology markets, you were still scribbling about supposed jury malfeasance and future appellate rulings. When you finally see it spelled out to you that the patent wars are over, your ears perk up and you proudly declaim it from the rooftops as if it were a secret you'd overhead, all without realizing that Samsung having won means that their strategy of copying Apple was so financially successful that no financial penalty could possibly be dissuasive of IP theft.

Thick as a brick.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:42 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post
Your obliviousness is an amusing spectacle. While every informed observer understood that litigation would not change anything fundamental in the technology markets, you were still scribbling about supposed jury malfeasance and future appellate rulings. When you finally see it spelled out to you that the patent wars are over, your ears perk up and you proudly declaim it from the rooftops as if it were a secret you'd overhead, all without realizing that Samsung having won means that their strategy of copying Apple was so financially successful that no financial penalty could possibly be dissuasive of IP theft.

Thick as a brick.
'

I'm not going to stoop to your level and engage in transparently weak personal insults which are against forum policy.

I will say that the patent wars are hardly over. Anyone who thinks they are is delusional.

I'm not sure why one would think so. Samsung and Apple have a another big court date scheduled for late 2013-2014. The current jury verdict from this summer is terribly flawed and still in jeopardy of being thrown out or heavily reduced. And contrary to a previous post, Samsung did not withdraw their suit in Europe. They are still suing Apple for infringement and seeking compensation. They only withdrew the request to have some Apple products banned.

The wars are just getting heated up.

--Pat
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:12 PM   #485
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:27 PM   #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatNY View Post
And contrary to a previous post, Samsung did not withdraw their suit in Europe.
Hi Pat, please note that my post was actually correct:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
I see that Samsung have also just pulled their own lawsuits seeking injunctions against Apple in Europe
You are right that they are still continuing with the FRAND infringement lawsuit, but I was specific about what they had pulled in my post.

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Old 12-20-2012, 03:00 PM   #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
Hi Pat, please note that my post was actually correct:


You are right that they are still continuing with the FRAND infringement lawsuit, but I was specific about what they had pulled in my post.

Graham
Hi Graham, yes you are right. Your post is correct. But it's what wasn't said that may have caused confusion and some to erroneously think that the patent wars were over and that Samsung had stopped its litigation in Europe.

They pulled the requests for injunctions in part because they are at the root of the EU's anti-trust action toward Samsung. But the lawsuits seeking compensation remain:

Quote:
Although Samsung's Tuesday move lifts the threat to Apple of having to stop sales of its phones and fondleslabs in the UK, Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands, the Koreans aren't giving up their European battle against Apple entirely. They're still suing Apple for compensation over selected technology licences.

"Samsung did not withdraw its lawsuits in Europe," a Samsung spokesman told the Associated Press; "the lawsuits are very much in place."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...against_apple/
I understand the desire for the patent wars to end. They are costly (for consumers) and have the potential to restrict the choice of phones and "fondleslabs" we can buy. Yet to some extent it's important that these patent issues get sorted out so that there is freedom for competition and innovation in the future. Especially in the U.S., the patent system needs reforms.

On a side note, I find the term "fondleslab" hysterically funny

--Pat
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:24 PM   #488
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Yes, the patent wars are clearly over ...


Quote:
SAN FRANCISCO—Apple filed an appeal Thursday of a judge's refusal to bar some Samsung smartphones from the U.S. market, extending one of several legal battles raging around the world between the two tech giants ...

The judge said Apple Inc. failed to prove that it lost money because consumers bought Samsung products due to features first used by Apple such as "pinch-to-zoom."

Samsung Electronics Inc. has said only three of the 26 products—all versions of its Galaxy SII smartphones—remain on sale.

Samsung is demanding a new trial or a significant reduction of the damage award. The company has said it would appeal if Koh refuses to grant a new trial.

http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_2...gainst-samsung

Get out the popcorn.

--Pat
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:09 PM   #489
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Come on guys. Lets try to keep this thread alive.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:38 PM   #490
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Was browsing Reddit and came upon a couple of articles that reminded me of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmodo
An iPhone Lover’s Confession: I Switched To the Nexus 4. Completely.
Over the past few years I've invested a lot into Apple's products and services.

If you come by my house, you'd find four of the latest Apple TVs, two iMacs, the latest MacBook Air, a MacBook Pro, more than five AirPort Express stations and Apple's Time Capsule. You could touch every single iPhone, from the first up to the iPhone 5, iPads ranging from first generation to fourth and we recently added two iPad minis...

The reach of Apple's products goes beyond my personal life.

As the co-founder of Germany's largest mobile development shop, I'm dealing with apps – predominantly iOS powered – in my daily professional life.

Driven primarily by the business I run, I tried to give Android a chance more than once.

In various self-experiments, I tried to leave my iPhone at home for the Motorola Droid, the Nexus One, the Samsung Galaxy S II and S III – and always switched straight back to the iPhone. None of those Android devices have worked for me – yet.

And then I got the Nexus 4.
When the latest Google flagship Android device shipped, I almost expected it to turn out as yet another "take-a-look-and-sell-it-on-ebay" experience. Little did I know...

Putting it into a single line: The latest version of Android outshines the latest version of iOS in almost every single aspect.
Full article here: http://gizmodo.com/5973073/an-iphone...s-4-completely

I encourage anyone interested in this to read that Gizmodo article. He goes into a fair bit of detail about why he switched as well as what he misses about the iPhone.

And then there's also this data point (which the writer accurately describes as more academic than anything):

Quote:
Originally Posted by VentureBeat.com
Google Play will hit a million apps in June (probably sooner than the iOS app store)
I think we’re well past the time when number of apps is the defining factor of a mobile ecosystem, at least if you’re Apple or Google. Perhaps not so much if you’re Windows Phone or RIM.

But it’s still an occasional cause for genteel indirect Google-Apple pissing contests in dueling press releases. And if the number is high enough, it’s still an indicator for smartphone owners that almost any app they might actually want will actually be available...

Google actually caught up with Apple in October — or got close enough that the distinction became academic — with 700,000 apps. The Sociable estimates that Google Play now has 800,000 apps and is growing faster than the iOS app store.
Full article here: http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/04/go...ios-app-store/
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:39 PM   #491
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:50 PM   #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K. Molen View Post

Full article here: http://gizmodo.com/5973073/an-iphone...s-4-completely

I encourage anyone interested in this to read that Gizmodo article. He goes into a fair bit of detail about why he switched as well as what he misses about the iPhone.
Wow. That's about as strong an endorsement of the Nexus/Android product as you're ever going to find. Thanks for sharing.

One thing I found interesting in the article is how Android didn't have the "bouncing" and "scroll views" in the OS because of the Apple patents. Well I believe that Apple has failed up to this day to offer home screen widgets for its iOS for the very same reason -- because they know it was first patented for Android and they can't very well go around suing Samsung (Android) if they are using some of Android's patented designs. And this just points out how questionable the US patent system is, and how stupid the whole litigation strategy is because the only one who suffers are consumers who are missing out on features in their mobile devices. Many of these things should simply not be patentable.

Quote:
And then there's also this data point (which the writer accurately describes as more academic than anything):

Full article here: http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/04/go...ios-app-store/
In one of the earlier threads a month or two ago this was talked about -- how the Google store was growing faster than the Apple store and was now even in the number of apps. Now it appears the Google store will shortly overtake the Apple store. So much for the specious claim someone made then that developers prefer developing for iOS. The opposite appears to be the case.

--Pat
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:26 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by PatNY View Post
So much for the specious claim someone made then that developers prefer developing for iOS. The opposite appears to be the case.
I imagine a significant portion of the Android app growth is from formerly iOS-only apps being ported across, as the platform becomes more inviting?
There will also be a significant chunk of apps that will only ever be on Android, and never ported across to iOS, because the offer or rely on flexibility that is available in Android but not in iOS.
Android is much more appealing to hobby developers because of the increased flexibility and the ease of getting new releases out to people, versus the single point of control and slow approval process for iOS.
But I think that most commercial developers (for examples for games) will still develop for iOS as the primary platform and then consider an Android port, because (at least at the moment), iOS users are more profitable than Android ones, they spend a considerable amount more on apps.
A Forbes article from August this year had the following numbers:
Quote:
Apple apps make money. Distimo, a mobile consulting firm, estimates that the Apple App store generates $5.4M/day for the 200 top-grossing apps while Google generates just $679K for their top-200 grossing apps. That is almost a 8:1 revenue ratio.

And Apple apps make developers money. More of Apple’s apps generate revenue, while most of Google apps are free: 67% of apps on Apple are paid for versus 34% on Google. And that gets developers paid. Asymco estimates that Android developers made $210M in all of 2011, compared to the $700M pocketed by Apple iOS developers in the Q4 2011. And getting paid attracts more developers to Apple. Flurry Analytics estimates that 7 of 10 develop for Apple’s iOS compared to Google’s Android. AppStoreHQ estimates there are over 43K Apple iOS developers and 10K Android developers. Why? Because iOS developers earn more. For the very same app, Flurry Analytics estimates that a developer will earn $1.00 on the Apple iOS version compared to $0.24 for the Google Android version.
The gaps will close eventually, and it may well be than ultimately Android will be the more profitable platform as well as the more numerous one, but iOS app development will probably produce more revenue for quite a while after Android actually has more apps available.

Wired put it bluntly: "Android is a desolate wasteland when it comes to games"
And gaming is hugely important in revenue terms.
As of March this year the numbers were: (http://www.philterdesign.com/?p=582)
Quote:
Games in the Top 100 Grossing
Games in the Top 20: 20
Games in the Top 50: 39
Games in the Top 100: 74
Just to repeat that. All 20 of the top grossing iOS apps were games. And 74% of the top 100.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:09 PM   #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murraypaul View Post
I imagine a significant portion of the Android app growth is from formerly iOS-only apps being ported across, as the platform becomes more inviting?
I'm guessing that used to be the case but that's long over. In recent months, Android app growth has far outpaced that of Apple, and it's probably for new apps that don't appear on iOS. I'm guessing as of this moment, Google Play has more apps than the Apple Store.

Quote:
There will also be a significant chunk of apps that will only ever be on Android, and never ported across to iOS, because the offer or rely on flexibility that is available in Android but not in iOS.
Android is much more appealing to hobby developers because of the increased flexibility and the ease of getting new releases out to people, versus the single point of control and slow approval process for iOS.
But I think that most commercial developers (for examples for games) will still develop for iOS as the primary platform and then consider an Android port, because (at least at the moment), iOS users are more profitable than Android ones, they spend a considerable amount more on apps.
That sounds contradictory. If iOS apps were more profitable, then developers would be flocking to them in greater numbers regardless of the approval process. And some have said it's more difficult developing an app for Android in many cases because of all the different tablet permutations and software overlays that OEM's put on top of stock Android. Despite this difficulty, they are flocking to Android, so there must be greater profitability there in the long run.


Quote:
A Forbes article from August this year had the following numbers:


The gaps will close eventually, and it may well be than ultimately Android will be the more profitable platform as well as the more numerous one, but iOS app development will probably produce more revenue for quite a while after Android actually has more apps available.
Do you have a link for that Forbes article? And keep in mind that if the article is from August, they may be using very old data. The market is changing extremely fast and data gets obsolete in a matter of weeks sometimes.

Quote:
Wired put it bluntly: "Android is a desolate wasteland when it comes to games"
And gaming is hugely important in revenue terms.
As of March this year the numbers were: (http://www.philterdesign.com/?p=582)

Just to repeat that. All 20 of the top grossing iOS apps were games. And 74% of the top 100.
Since I rarely play games on mobile devices, it's hard for me to comment on that particular segment of the market. So let me quote someone who commented under that Wired article:

"I own a couple of Android devices and game on both of them, I've purchased over 25 games for Android as well as purchasing a load of apps as I believe in supporting devs ...

To say Android on gaming is a desolate waste-land is complete hyperbole.

I recently spent some time reviewing an iPhone 5 and was extremely surprised at how mediocre the selection of games was when I was promised that the iOS platform was infinitely more mature for gaming than Android. Any of the really good games had to be purchased, and were often two or three times the price of Android equivalents."


From the perspective of a developer of games, it may be true that the money is in iOS as Apple users may play more games. But there are only so many developers of games out there. For every other category, a developer may be better off with Android. And perhaps that is why they are flocking more heavily to that platform.

From my perspective as a mobile device user, since games are so low on the totem pole, then any edge iOS has in games over Android is totally irrelevant to me. Much more important, for example, are reading apps. And Android is far superior to iOS in that category.

I guess iOS is for games ... Android is for reading!

At any rate, numbers don't lie. Developers in general are heavily going for Android these days over iOS. There has to be a good reason why instead of just doing it for the sheer hell of it, particularly when it can be more difficult to program for the Android platform.

--Pat
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:19 PM   #495
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Quote:
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That sounds contradictory. If iOS apps were more profitable, then developers would be flocking to them in greater numbers regardless of the approval process. And some have said it's more difficult developing an app for Android in many cases because of all the different tablet permutations and software overlays that OEM's put on top of stock Android. Despite this difficulty, they are flocking to Android, so there must be greater profitability there in the long run.
Not all developers are commercial developers.
A greater number of apps available doesn't mean a greater number of developers, or a greater number of developers whose primary motivation is profit. I think there would be a massively larger hobby coder population for Android than iOS. [a) it is free, b) it is easier to release, c) there are many more opportunities for tweaks and customisations, d) it better fits the general hobby coder philosophy]
If you are giving the app away for free, then you are less likely to bother submitting to the tight requirements and approval process of the Apple App Store.
There are also whole types of app that simply can't be released for iOS, anything widgety or related to customisation.

A recent IDC report shows (of those developers that IDC surveyed), iOS was still the platform of choice, although not by a massive margin.
The original Forbes article was here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/darcytra...s-dont-matter/
Forbes do seem to have a rather pro-iOS, anti-Android spin on things.

Quote:
At any rate, numbers don't lie. Developers in general are heavily going for Android these days over iOS.
Numbers don't lie, but they can be misrepresented. A having more apps that B doesn't mean that A has more developers than B, or that those developers are making more money.

Last edited by murraypaul; 01-05-2013 at 07:22 PM.
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