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Old 11-29-2012, 10:51 PM   #271
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They were presenting Windows 8 on Acer hardware, and I played around with one. The hardware is nice, the screen was responsive, and it felt quite natural to mix using the keyboard with touching the screen. The OS on the other hand was a little annoying.

I'm trying to decide if it's better to go for a tablet with a keyboard docking station or an ultrabook with a touchscreen.
If you have a fixed keyboard then the use of a touch screen is rather awkward, in that case a mouse is much more convenient.

The real question you should be asking yourself is "do I want to use this PC as a tablet, too?"

Last edited by HansTWN; 11-29-2012 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:57 PM   #272
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:21 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by HansTWN View Post
If you have a fixed keyboard then the use of a touch screen is rather awkward, in that case a mouse is much more convenient.
Actually it wasn't awkward. The two go well together. Touching the screen is faster for somethings, especially navigating the interface, and very nice for drawing; and there are things that are better achieved with a mouse (or trackpad) like making use of the right-click button or hovering the pointer over an item.

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The real question you should be asking yourself is "do I want to use this PC as a tablet, too?"
You would have to clear out what you mean by use as a tablet.
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:18 AM   #274
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Actually it wasn't awkward. The two go well together. Touching the screen is faster for somethings, especially navigating the interface, and very nice for drawing; and there are things that are better achieved with a mouse (or trackpad) like making use of the right-click button or hovering the pointer over an item.


You would have to clear out what you mean by use as a tablet.
Hold the screen in your hands, grabbing it at the sides and completely rely on touch to control it -- great on the sofa, in bed, etc. I also prop it up on a table, pull it close (no keyboard is in the way) and read the newspaper or a magazine. Touch is also much better for that, too.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:23 AM   #275
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If you have a fixed keyboard then the use of a touch screen is rather awkward, in that case a mouse is much more convenient.

The real question you should be asking yourself is "do I want to use this PC as a tablet, too?"
Yes, I weally, weally DO, LOL.

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Spent it all on women, didn't you?
BWAHAHAHAHA.

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Hitch, what productivity issues did you notice? I'm still coming up to speed but I've got my desktop OneNote files working fine through Outline+. Haven't decided on my primary word processor yet, maybe Docs to Go if I want desktop sync. Otherwise maybe Paper or iA Writer if I'm willing to jump through more sync hoops. Sugarsync is working fine but it seems Dropbox support is integrated into more apps so I may be adding that. I've been using Handbase for a relational database since my Palm days and it works reasonably well in iOS as well (you do also have to buy the desktop program if you want desktop functionality beyond CSV files).
@Penforhire:

I guess part of this is because we--my company--already have so many bridges, kluges and software "friendship bracelets" to make things work together that I tend to get exhausted thinking about doing yet more to make the iPad--even if I could really use it to key--work with everything else. On my desk I have a Win7 box with 3 huge monitors, and a Mac-mini with one for itself. The shop has 2 more linux boxes (two different versions, of course, both running VM's), another two macs (the right-brainers), and the rest are on Win boxes, ranging from (I kid thee not) one XP die-hard and the rest are Win7 boxes.

By way of explanation, we use Desk for CSR, which is kluged to our FAQ/KB, which outputs data we use in Teamworks, which is kluged to Freshbooks, which is for quoting/billing. All of which is kluged to our corporate email. We use the TW API to pull raw data for a variety of reporting needs. We live and die on Dropbox. Of course, we have more software for manipulating formats than IBM, probably--from Abbyy to Adobe to Office to Sigil to I've-lost-track. And a zillion wee utility programs, like the epub.tweak exe and some others like that.

So, when it comes to portability and integration, I'm really looking at the quality of the output. My vote mostly goes to Textilus, for any type of raw typing I do on the iPad, because that gives me plain old RTF, (or you can export the underlying HTML) which I can then use like molding dough to make into whatever I want for export. I synched that to a Dropbox, so I don't even have to move it across the ether; once the document is saved, it's available to any computer in the shop or on the go.

I will admit that I learned very early (even before Liz, which amazed me) that I could use Dropbox as a shortcut for moving files hither and yon and for the fastest method for sideloading, ever. Let's see...I was not able to really coordinate contacts across various boxes. (Granted--have not tried lately). Great if your contacts are on your Mac--not so great for other. I actually gave up on email on the iPad, because our email load is so bloody heavy that it was crippling (+/-9K/mo.)--no way to live-synch it to our email and no way to mark all as read? I find that a terminal oversight. Reminders, regular Notes..meh. I do use both databases and tons of spreadsheets on my PC's, so you can see how that might be a bit crippling.

I did not find--and this was a while ago--that the various faux-Office apps really integrated that well (as far as the exported files/saved to DB) with actual MS Office apps. The files just seemed to have various and sundry coding inconsistencies or glitches, which is why I went to Textilus for plain old typing. I did not know about Outline+ -- I'll give that a shot. I'm glad to see it. I'd been using Evernote instead of OneNote, not very happily as I'd grown disenchanted with Evernote when it repeatedly crashed Outlook on my PC about...2 years ago? it works "okay" on the Ipad.

I don't use a stylus, so I can't comment on that. I can key substantially faster than I can write, and for hyper-speed I can dictate a verbal note to Evernote as needed.

I hope that helps somebody. I could just be cranky, too. ;-) But I think that even though I tend to be a software junkie, Win boxes suit my method of working best, as far as I've found, so I'm personally probably either going with a SurfacePro, come January, or another Win8 box if I see one that I think will give me the lightness, portability and KEYBOARD I really want. The way I blow through keyboards, those are seriously crucial.

Plus, truth be told, the way Apple abandons OS's and devices just creeps me out. I, too, held on to my old XP box until just this past December, until I was satisfied that 7 was stable, and never even glanced at Vista. Granted, that was seriously pushing it, but...I wanted to be sure that Vista had gone back to ruling in Hell, where it belonged. With Apple, that attitude, of keeping computers that WORK for more than 1-2 years, particularly the past 4 years or so, seems to be designed for doom.

Just my $.02.

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Old 11-30-2012, 12:30 PM   #276
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Hold the screen in your hands, grabbing it at the sides and completely rely on touch to control it -- great on the sofa, in bed, etc. I also prop it up on a table, pull it close (no keyboard is in the way) and read the newspaper or a magazine. Touch is also much better for that, too.
Of course you can hold it in your hands, and it does have a touch screen, so you can navigate newspapers or magazines. If you are worried that the keyboard would get in the way, there is the Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga 13:
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:22 PM   #277
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Why would Windows 8 make a difference for CAD? Good old Windows is still there to run their software as-is, and CAD software is sufficiently specialized that people will go out and shop for it (i.e. they don't have to play by Microsoft's rules to sell in Microsoft's store).
I have NOT played with W8 yet, but form what I can tell, it's difficult to have several windows across multiple monitors with the new interface. And I simply don't trust that they won't pull an Apple, and do away with the interface that works in the next iteration because they know my needs better than I do.

As a user of a LOT of information, I need multiple programs going at a time, whilst also having a reference PDF (or two or more) open in order to do my job effectively. I'm sure coders go through the same type of thing.

The inability to multi-multi-task will kill most users of CAD type software, particularly when you start getting into CAE software, or god help us, CFD analysis.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:59 PM   #278
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I have NOT played with W8 yet, but form what I can tell, it's difficult to have several windows across multiple monitors with the new interface. And I simply don't trust that they won't pull an Apple, and do away with the interface that works in the next iteration because they know my needs better than I do.

As a user of a LOT of information, I need multiple programs going at a time, whilst also having a reference PDF (or two or more) open in order to do my job effectively. I'm sure coders go through the same type of thing.

The inability to multi-multi-task will kill most users of CAD type software, particularly when you start getting into CAE software, or god help us, CFD analysis.
Why would you think that it's difficult to have several windows across multiple monitors? I do that all the time. I also have multiple programs going at the same time with no problem. Maybe you're thinking of Windows RT with these limitations? (I don't have a WinRT machine here, I've only played with one briefly in a store)

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Old 11-30-2012, 02:54 PM   #279
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Why would you think that it's difficult to have several windows across multiple monitors? I do that all the time. I also have multiple programs going at the same time with no problem. Maybe you're thinking of Windows RT with these limitations? (I don't have a WinRT machine here, I've only played with one briefly in a store)
Because of videos like this one:

Spoiler:


I see a 'snap' like behavior, where it takes up a column of space and he can only determine one dimension. I'd prefer to put a window in this quadrant, another over there in that quadrant, etc.

Maybe I want two windows from the same program, like Excel sheets, but across multiple monitors. I've not tried these things, but the design philosophy seems to be to keep everything quarantined in their own program, with limits on how they display on screen.

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Old 11-30-2012, 04:59 PM   #280
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Yes, I weally, weally DO, LOL.

BWAHAHAHAHA.

@Penforhire:

I guess part of this is because we--my company--already have so many bridges, kluges and software "friendship bracelets" to make things work together that I tend to get exhausted thinking about doing yet more to make the iPad--even if I could really use it to key--work with everything else. On my desk I have a Win7 box with 3 huge monitors, and a Mac-mini with one for itself. The shop has 2 more linux boxes (two different versions, of course, both running VM's), another two macs (the right-brainers), and the rest are on Win boxes, ranging from (I kid thee not) one XP die-hard and the rest are Win7 boxes.

By way of explanation, we use Desk for CSR, which is kluged to our FAQ/KB, which outputs data we use in Teamworks, which is kluged to Freshbooks, which is for quoting/billing. All of which is kluged to our corporate email. We use the TW API to pull raw data for a variety of reporting needs. We live and die on Dropbox. Of course, we have more software for manipulating formats than IBM, probably--from Abbyy to Adobe to Office to Sigil to I've-lost-track. And a zillion wee utility programs, like the epub.tweak exe and some others like that.

So, when it comes to portability and integration, I'm really looking at the quality of the output. My vote mostly goes to Textilus, for any type of raw typing I do on the iPad, because that gives me plain old RTF, (or you can export the underlying HTML) which I can then use like molding dough to make into whatever I want for export. I synched that to a Dropbox, so I don't even have to move it across the ether; once the document is saved, it's available to any computer in the shop or on the go.

I will admit that I learned very early (even before Liz, which amazed me) that I could use Dropbox as a shortcut for moving files hither and yon and for the fastest method for sideloading, ever. Let's see...I was not able to really coordinate contacts across various boxes. (Granted--have not tried lately). Great if your contacts are on your Mac--not so great for other. I actually gave up on email on the iPad, because our email load is so bloody heavy that it was crippling (+/-9K/mo.)--no way to live-synch it to our email and no way to mark all as read? I find that a terminal oversight. Reminders, regular Notes..meh. I do use both databases and tons of spreadsheets on my PC's, so you can see how that might be a bit crippling.

I did not find--and this was a while ago--that the various faux-Office apps really integrated that well (as far as the exported files/saved to DB) with actual MS Office apps. The files just seemed to have various and sundry coding inconsistencies or glitches, which is why I went to Textilus for plain old typing. I did not know about Outline+ -- I'll give that a shot. I'm glad to see it. I'd been using Evernote instead of OneNote, not very happily as I'd grown disenchanted with Evernote when it repeatedly crashed Outlook on my PC about...2 years ago? it works "okay" on the Ipad.

I don't use a stylus, so I can't comment on that. I can key substantially faster than I can write, and for hyper-speed I can dictate a verbal note to Evernote as needed.

I hope that helps somebody. I could just be cranky, too. ;-) But I think that even though I tend to be a software junkie, Win boxes suit my method of working best, as far as I've found, so I'm personally probably either going with a SurfacePro, come January, or another Win8 box if I see one that I think will give me the lightness, portability and KEYBOARD I really want. The way I blow through keyboards, those are seriously crucial.

Plus, truth be told, the way Apple abandons OS's and devices just creeps me out. I, too, held on to my old XP box until just this past December, until I was satisfied that 7 was stable, and never even glanced at Vista. Granted, that was seriously pushing it, but...I wanted to be sure that Vista had gone back to ruling in Hell, where it belonged. With Apple, that attitude, of keeping computers that WORK for more than 1-2 years, particularly the past 4 years or so, seems to be designed for doom.

Just my $.02.

Hitch
My God man!
That is worse than when I was seriously dating 4 women.
I was divorcing 1 but not sure about it, engaged to another and not sure of it, and two more I was juggling in case I changed my mind, and of course was still on the look out.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:03 PM   #281
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Of course you can hold it in your hands, and it does have a touch screen, so you can navigate newspapers or magazines. If you are worried that the keyboard would get in the way, there is the Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga 13:
I have something like that now -- the problem is the extra weight. If you are not worried about that, then something like this or the convertibles from Dell are ideal, of course.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:12 AM   #282
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Because of videos like this one:

Spoiler:


I see a 'snap' like behavior, where it takes up a column of space and he can only determine one dimension. I'd prefer to put a window in this quadrant, another over there in that quadrant, etc.

Maybe I want two windows from the same program, like Excel sheets, but across multiple monitors. I've not tried these things, but the design philosophy seems to be to keep everything quarantined in their own program, with limits on how they display on screen.
I couldn't see the video, but since you're talking about "snapping" the apps, I assume that's WindowsRT. The full version of Windows 8 behaves exactly like previous Windows OSs when it comes to multi-tasking. I can have multiple monitors, with multiple programs open and accessible on each monitor.

Shari
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:53 AM   #283
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I couldn't see the video, but since you're talking about "snapping" the apps, I assume that's WindowsRT. The full version of Windows 8 behaves exactly like previous Windows OSs when it comes to multi-tasking. I can have multiple monitors, with multiple programs open and accessible on each monitor.

Shari
That is true for legacy programs, but not for the apps from Windows Store ---they work like the apps on Windows RT, even when used in Windows 8 Pro. Interesting thing is that I can use the Desktop as one of the "snap" apps in RT, and on the desktop I could have browser and Office windows open. There are two browser in RT, a metro and a desktop one.
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:05 AM   #284
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My God man!
That is worse than when I was seriously dating 4 women.
I was divorcing 1 but not sure about it, engaged to another and not sure of it, and two more I was juggling in case I changed my mind, and of course was still on the look out.
SeaKing:

Can you be "seriously dating" a woman you're divorcing?

;-)

Yeah, it's a rumble in the bumble around here, but we haven't found anything else that really "makes that dog hunt," as they say. I looked at MS Dynamics, for a CSR system, which I thought, "well, cool, I can integrate that straight to a Sharepoint system," right up to the point that one of MS's "partners" told me--I swear, I am not making this up--that they wanted $6K (yes, six thousand buckeroos, not pesos) for installing our TWO EMAIL ADDRESSES. Now, I'm as flexible as the next person, somewhat--and I have a healthy regard for the capitalistic rights of anyone to earn a buck, but six thou? I literally started laughing on the phone with them, and told these two bozos who were trying to tag-team me that they'd been playing with OPM for far too long. That I was a small business, not bloody IBM. The manual for Dynamics is about 1500 pages long--all to do nothing but set statuses on various communications and send canned emails.

The Dynamics system is actually sales-oriented, which isn't what I was seeking--I wanted something more industrial-strength in terms of handling our masses of email--but the $6K was to "make two email addresses work" and install a browser-based version of Outlook (Outlook360). I mean, seriously? SIX GRAND? Oish. For 6 thou I'd put on rollerblades and run the damn messages up and down the halls. The whole point was to have a web-based email interface for me and my admin people. so we could all work out of the same email at the same time--that's it. Not invent a whole new email system and BUY a blade-server. Dolts. Thus, Desk. It's not wondrous, but it's okay. I saw a Russian product I thought about...but then, having a smart moment for a change, I said, "hmmm...nyet." ;-)

Hitch
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:39 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by HansTWN View Post
I have something like that now -- the problem is the extra weight. If you are not worried about that, then something like this or the convertibles from Dell are ideal, of course.
Well, the screen is bigger than most tablets, so naturally it weighs more. It comes down to what you want.
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