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Old 11-17-2012, 05:20 AM   #121
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I'm buying it only for the hardware.
No, not really. I'm not defending Amazon or Jesse83, but Kindle without software, provided by Amazon (imagine fully erased, blank internal eMMC or, not so radically, eMMC with standard Freescale BSP), would be just a good development board in pretty case, not a customer-ready eReader with some [UI] flaws. If you've bought development board, then, even in case of PW, you still can access it through serial port.

And, then, you are providing an easy way to disable Special Offers with JBPatch. What did you expect from business owners? "Ah, nevermind! We don't need revenue from ads, these homebrew developers are good guys, so let's keep status quo."

Let the flame begins
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:07 AM   #122
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No, not really. I'm not defending Amazon or Jesse83, but Kindle without software, provided by Amazon (imagine fully erased, blank internal eMMC or, not so radically, eMMC with standard Freescale BSP), would be just a good development board in pretty case, not a customer-ready eReader with some [UI] flaws. If you've bought development board, then, even in case of PW, you still can access it through serial port.
OK, let me rephrase: I bought it for the hardware and OS, but not for buying shitloads of e-books from Amazon (which actually is the only purpose of the reader, from Amazon's point of view). I bought exactly one book. Otherwise, what I'm reading on it is free and sideloaded.

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And, then, you are providing an easy way to disable Special Offers with JBPatch. What did you expect from business owners? "Ah, nevermind! We don't need revenue from ads, these homebrew developers are good guys, so let's keep status quo."
They don't get revenue from the ads. If I merely see the ad, they get no revenue at all. And since I'm not buying anything based on the ads, I can just as well not see them. (and... jbpatch wasn't the first method to remove the SOs. There actually is a method which doesn't even require the jailbreak at all - what now? Are all Kindle owners potential criminals?).

And anyway, just because the jailbreak ALSO allows to do exactly one thing that some consider "evil" or "stealing" (no, I don't), but many other things that make the device more attractive and actually help Amazon, they show us the middle finger?

Finally, I'd bet that the lockdown would also have happened if there hadn't been any Special Offer devices, so the only weak argument of the "developers are evil, we need to lock down our device" proponents is futile.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:41 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by ixtab View Post
They don't get revenue from the ads. If I merely see the ad, they get no revenue at all. And since I'm not buying anything based on the ads, I can just as well not see them. (and... jbpatch wasn't the first method to remove the SOs. There actually is a method which doesn't even require the jailbreak at all - what now? Are all Kindle owners potential criminals?).

And anyway, just because the jailbreak ALSO allows to do exactly one thing that some consider "evil" or "stealing" (no, I don't), but many other things that make the device more attractive and actually help Amazon, they show us the middle finger?
It still strikes me as being fundamentally dishonest, I'm afraid.

You've freely and willingly entered into a contract with Amazon, the terms of which are that Amazon give you $20 (or whatever it is) off the price of a Kindle in exchange for you seeing ads. It doesn't matter whether or not you buy anything - you've willingly entered into a contract, and now you're walking away from your side of the deal by removing the ads.

Amazon provide you with a legitimate mechanism for buying yourself out of the contact, by paying the difference in price between the ad-supported and the non ad-supported version of the device.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:11 AM   #124
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come on, you really think there is almost no room for improvement? Just look at the stuff that I released for the Touch
I meant little room for improvement for the hardware obviously. (beside more pixels, more contrasts, better light, duh). You are just selling my case, if you are talking to the software side, then yes there is a lot of room for improvement, that's the whole point, if it was all open source, all developper friendly, you would be basically taking their jobs.

Then you say "we save lives", with debricks, ok nice, but it's not like they need your help, you pretend that you save them money. I wonder how many of these debricks come from messing with it in the first place. And how many of these devices would be out of guarantee. They would gladly take the bullet don't worry. You most likely save US money.

I'm on no one sides, I'm just pointing out the obvious...I would be more on your side to be honest.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:16 AM   #125
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OK, let me rephrase: I bought it for the hardware and OS, but not for buying shitloads of e-books from Amazon (which actually is the only purpose of the reader, from Amazon's point of view). I bought exactly one book. Otherwise, what I'm reading on it is free and sideloaded.
It's a false dichotomy. Even without jailbreak you're not required to buy any book from Amazon. Sideloading of books works fine in stock 5.3.0 firmware. I didn't buy any book from Amazon either.

Also, Amazon firmware can't be easily installed in OS-only form (without userspace programs). It's not officially supported. But it's possible anyway. Extract rootfs from 5.3.0 bundle; remove Amazon userspace programs: at least, Java-based UI, Mesquite-based apps, ToDo (which is pulling software updates) and OTA updater; then flash remained part through serial port/U-Boot console. Then try to use it. Is it what you've bought Kindle for? Did you buy Kindle for hardware or for hardware and OS or for hardware and Amazon's firmware?

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They don't get revenue from the ads. If I merely see the ad, they get no revenue at all. And since I'm not buying anything based on the ads, I can just as well not see them. (and... jbpatch wasn't the first method to remove the SOs. There actually is a method which doesn't even require the jailbreak at all - what now? Are all Kindle owners potential criminals?).
I think they do get some revenue from showing ads, because the chain of user actions can be a little longer. User see the ad -> user click the ad -> user buy advertised product. (EDIT: ah, discard these striked words. It's the same as you've said and I now understand your point of view.) If user don't want to see ads, she can just look through it. Or buy Kindle without Special Offers. Or disable Special Offers in Manage Your Kindle cabinet (with additional payment).

Of course, when device is in your hands, you can disable Special Offers with additional code, but without any additional payment. Amazon can't enforce you to pay and they can't enforce you to stop distributing your code. They are helpless. Or... They can try to change their code, so that your changes will stop work for some time. It's a logical next step, isn't it?

I also saw some testimonies about bad/non-stable behavior of trick with .assets (non-jailblreak way of disabling of SO) on PW.

I don't think Amazon is willing to accuse anybody as a criminal for disabling Special Offers. They implemented a bit more effective measures. (Though, their measures will be bypassed, because their programmers aren't perfect.)

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And anyway, just because the jailbreak ALSO allows to do exactly one thing that some consider "evil" or "stealing" (no, I don't), but many other things that make the device more attractive and actually help Amazon, they show us the middle finger?

Finally, I'd bet that the lockdown would also have happened if there hadn't been any Special Offer devices, so the only weak argument of the "developers are evil, we need to lock down our device" proponents is futile.
Jailbreak allows anything. Amazon can't provide limited jailbreak, like: "here is your root, but you can't disable SO without fair payment". Here is the problem (for Amazon). They can only lock the whole device. They did it. It will not help them in [not so] long term, of course.

I do agree that my argument was weak. For example, Java code would be obfuscated anyway, even without "Disable SO" option in JBPatch. It's bad. I'm pro-jailbreak, peace!

Last edited by eureka; 11-17-2012 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:25 AM   #126
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I meant little room for improvement for the hardware obviously. (beside more pixels, more contrasts, better light, duh)
Color E Ink-like screen? It will be a bomb. Flexible thin device with color E Ink-like screen? It will be a nuclear bomb. Flexible thin device with color E Ink-like screen and 60fps refresh rate and battery for billions of screen refreshes? Another nuclear bomb.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:38 AM   #127
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Color E Ink-like screen? It will be a bomb. Flexible thin device with color E Ink-like screen? It will be a nuclear bomb. Flexible thin device with color E Ink-like screen and 60fps refresh rate and battery for billions of screen refreshes? Another nuclear bomb.
They already have a color eink screen, but doesn't seem to have been accepted widely... e-ink.org/triton or something like that.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:47 AM   #128
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It still strikes me as being fundamentally dishonest, I'm afraid.

You've freely and willingly entered into a contract with Amazon, the terms of which are that Amazon give you $20 (or whatever it is) off the price of a Kindle in exchange for you seeing ads. It doesn't matter whether or not you buy anything - you've willingly entered into a contract, and now you're walking away from your side of the deal by removing the ads.
I also got $20 off the price in exchange for seeing ads. But I still have my unit ads-free
just by keeping the Airplane mode always On. Should I feel myself fundamentally dishonest?
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:58 AM   #129
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I also got $20 off the price in exchange for seeing ads. But I still have my unit ads-free
just by keeping the Airplane mode always On. Should I feel myself fundamentally dishonest?
Yes. Until you're in an airplane.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:31 AM   #130
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It still strikes me as being fundamentally dishonest, I'm afraid.

You've freely and willingly entered into a contract with Amazon, the terms of which are that Amazon give you $20 (or whatever it is) off the price of a Kindle in exchange for you seeing ads. It doesn't matter whether or not you buy anything - you've willingly entered into a contract, and now you're walking away from your side of the deal by removing the ads.

Amazon provide you with a legitimate mechanism for buying yourself out of the contact, by paying the difference in price between the ad-supported and the non ad-supported version of the device.
There is no "my side of the deal". They offered me a device for some specific price, and I said "OK, I take it". Granted, they offered another device with very similar functionality for a higher price... but I opted for the cheaper one. And it is now MY device, and I can do whatever I want with it.

The parts of the EULA which try to forbid me to do some things like reverse engineering, modifying software etc., are simply void where I live - in fact, these actions are explicitly *permitted* here, by law. I did not agree to these terms of the EULA, because I don't need to. So I don't feel guilty at all.

If I decided to install duokan on it, would I be a fundamentally dishonest person? It would've removed the ads, after all. If I decided to just throw it in the next campfire,.... would I... I would actually NEVER see any ads on that device anymore.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:36 AM   #131
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@eureka

KPW with special offers is only for the USA customers. Here in Europe the KPW is sold without the SO option. For the Kindle Touch it has been the same.

I jailbreaked my KT and patched it to have hyphenation support, better margin handling, better font support, better dictionary support and the ability to choose my screensavers. All this stuff has been provided for free by this great developer community. They did it for fun and not for money. And all of this stuff makes my kindle touch a much better device.

That's why i don't feel guilty at all for having jailbreaked my Kindle (it's mine after all, isn't it?) and that's why I blame Amazon for having denied their customer the opportunity to improve their device.

The wise choice should have been: "they kick ass: let's hire them, they could help selling more devices". Amazon has opted for an idiotic solution.

Last edited by pirl8; 11-17-2012 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:11 AM   #132
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There is no "my side of the deal". They offered me a device for some specific price, and I said "OK, I take it". Granted, they offered another device with very similar functionality for a higher price... but I opted for the cheaper one. And it is now MY device, and I can do whatever I want with it.
I'm sorry, but this argument is pure sophistry. You know as well as I do that the deal is a cheaper price in return for the ads. What you've done certainly isn't illegal but it is, to my mind, at the very least, unethical.

You're complaining that Amazon have locked down the Kindle, but it seems to me that you've brought this situation entirely upon yourself. If people didn't do things like 3G tethering, ad removal, etc, there would be no reason for lockdowns. As it stands, you have only yourself to blame.

Last edited by HarryT; 11-17-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:39 AM   #133
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@eureka

KPW with special offers is only for the USA customers. Here in Europe the KPW is sold without the SO option. For the Kindle Touch it has been the same.

I jailbreaked my KT and patched it to have hyphenation support, better margin handling, better font support, better dictionary support and the ability to choose my screensavers. All this stuff has been provided for free by this great developer community. They did it for fun and not for money. And all of this stuff makes my kindle touch a much better device.

That's why i don't feel guilty at all for having jailbreaked my Kindle (it's mine after all, isn't it?) and that's why I blame Amazon for having denied their customer the opportunity to improve their device.

The wise choice should have been: "they kick ass: let's hire them, they could help selling more devices". Amazon has opted for an idiotic solution.
Don't worry, we, Kindle Touch owners, can easily use USB downloader mode for jailbreaking even if next KT firmware will lock the device in the spirit of 5.3.0.

I also don't feel guilty for jailbreaking my KT and I even helped to find one of three currently available methods for having 5.3.0 with jailbreak, though I don't own PW at all.

Lack of alternative, jailbreak-friendly official firmware for owners of Europe PW without SO is really disgusting. I guess, even owners of US devices will profit from existence of such firmware.

And I don't like missing of homebrew developers support too (let's skip subject of KDK which is restrictive and not available for general audience). But, hey, I don't know about any developer-friendly eReader on the market. And to be developer-friendly, it should be completely free ("free" as in "freedom") with official, vendor-supported way of gaining root aceess. I mean, really free, as Greenphone or Openmoko smartphones (Maemo devices are practically good too). And it should have stable, user-friendly open-sourced vendor firmware. Am I asking too much?

(Nook with Android is pretty close, but I don't want Android. I want plain old Linux Debian Sid.)
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:11 PM   #134
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I'm sorry, but this argument is pure sophistry. You know as well as I do that the deal is a cheaper price in return for the ads. What you've done certainly isn't illegal but it is, to my mind, at the very least, unethical.
Aha... sure. I actually paid a *higher* price for the KT SO version than I would have paid for the non-SO version (which has only been made available half a year later here). It wasn't available at the time, so I had to find solutions to have it shipped to Europe from the States, and that's not exactly cheap.
Anyway: there is no "deal". Yes, it's logical from Amazon's point of view to understand it that way, but that doesn't make it a deal. A deal is when both sides agree. Call that sophistry, call it unethical... frankly, I don't care.

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You're complaining that Amazon have locked down the Kindle, but it seems to me that you've brought this situation entirely upon yourself. If people didn't do things like 3G tethering, ad removal, etc, there would be no reason for lockdowns. As it stands, you have only yourself to blame.
So then why did Amazon already start to aggressively obfuscate and lock down their 5.1.0 version, and even more the 5.2.0 one? They don't want us to mess with what they consider "their" devices, that's all. They want us to be happy consumer sheep who just eat what they allow us to eat.

Oh... and why is their very first request, whenever you turn Wifi on on a registered Paperwhite, "send me all your log files"? (No, I'm not kidding). Ok, this is getting off-topic.... but is that kind of snooping around "ethical"?

Let's just agree to disagree.

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Old 11-17-2012, 12:24 PM   #135
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I meant little room for improvement for the hardware obviously. (beside more pixels, more contrasts, better light, duh). You are just selling my case, if you are talking to the software side, then yes there is a lot of room for improvement, that's the whole point, if it was all open source, all developper friendly, you would be basically taking their jobs.
What kind of a twisted logic is THAT? Are the thousands of developers publishing apps for the Android platform taking away money or jobs from Google? Or isn't it rather the opposite?

Quote:
Then you say "we save lives", with debricks, ok nice, but it's not like they need your help, you pretend that you save them money. I wonder how many of these debricks come from messing with it in the first place. And how many of these devices would be out of guarantee. They would gladly take the bullet don't worry. You most likely save US money.
That last sentence is probably true as well. But if you say that the debricks are "peanuts" in terms of money... then why don't you say the same for the very few evil folks who decide not to see the ads? Even if I accepted the point of view that this is indeed "stealing" - wouldn't that also just be peanuts?

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I'm on no one sides, I'm just pointing out the obvious...I would be more on your side to be honest.


EDIT/PS: I actually applied for an "official" Kindle developer account... twice. They didn't even bother to reply.

Last edited by ixtab; 11-17-2012 at 12:35 PM.
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