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Old 10-24-2012, 09:05 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by bhaak View Post
You know that "removing the DRM" is a violation of Amazon's Terms of Use
The phase you quote is not part of their terms of use, unless there is some other document you are basing this quotation on. Links are appreciated! Yes, "removing the DRM" would be a plausible paraphrase.

We know your three word quotation, plausible as it may be, is not Amazon policy because boatloads of customers remove the DRM of purchased content and nothing is done about it. The only evidence we have for the OP case is that the dispute concerns cross-national purchasing, not DRM.

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"Your rights under this Agreement will automatically terminate if you fail to comply with any term of this Agreement."
That quotation is acccurate, except that you seem to have invented the boldfacing. Amazon's whole sentence is false, and it would indeed be funny if Amazon boldfaced the word that's the most clearly a lie.

Publishers big enough to do a lot of marketing research are the ones which almost always DRM their books. I draw the inference that DRM reduces digital shoplifting AKA piracy. Like the security cameras in my local Barnes and Noble, it often fails to achieve its objective.

I must have spent hours of my life waiting in lines to have bags opened and searched going out of big public libraries, like the main one in Philadelphia. It sucks that you have to do that, and then a lot of people manage to steal the books anyway. I'm not going to let physical security, or Overdrive DRM, stop me from using libraries. If I start buying eBooks, well, I already have DRM on library books, so it would be no change. DRM is similar to bag-searching and anti-virus software -- an annoyance that, knowing a bit of human nature, I find reasonable.

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Old 10-24-2012, 12:02 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Dragoro View Post
Your assuming she was honest. Id argue she wasnt since she tried to game the system.

As for you wishing honest people getting hurt, what kind of low life person are you?
I can't really see that you provide any facts to support your conjecture that she tried "to game the system". You should be careful about calling people dishonest if you have no clue about the case in question. Would be nice if you stopped calling people "low life" as well.

As most of you probably know by now, she got her account and all her books back, without any explanation:

http://translate.google.com/translat...ng%2F1.8368487

EDIT: A followup of this case can be found http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/te...omer-1C6626211

Last edited by bob_tm; 10-24-2012 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:20 PM   #63
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:35 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_tm View Post
I can't really see that you provide any facts to support your conjecture that she tried "to game the system". You should be careful about calling people dishonest if you have no clue about the case in question. Would be nice if you stopped calling people "low life" as well.
And people should be just as careful about calling Amazon dishonest. None of us here really has a clue about this case, including you and me.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:42 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Dragoro View Post
She bought books from amazon.uk when she lives in Norway. People in Norway are not allowed to use amazon.uk they use amazon.eu or what ever the amazon europe site is.
Are you sure about that?
When on vacation and/or business trips in UK, I bought from Amazon UK.
Not just eBooks, but DVDs and other "physical goods" as well.
I gave the address of my hotel or my employers address and used my German credit card.
No intervention of any kind from Amazon.
In my understanding, all you need is a valid address. I haven't read anywhere, this address has to be a permanent one.

Last edited by mgmueller; 10-24-2012 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:48 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by silverraven View Post
OK, so I'm clueless. How is an account linked on Amazon?
S
Just a guess: I have 3 shipping addresses in my account. Originally, it was purely a German account.
Then, ca. 1999 to 2004, I've ordered lots of DVDs from Amazon in the US. Some of them I had shipped to my home address in Germany. Some of them I had sent to my employers offices in the US, where I took them on my next trip.
Later I've added the UK offices of my employer, when more often being to UK than to the US.
Maybe the understanding simply is, that's 3 different accounts under an "umbrella account"? The "umbrella" being the very same credit card? In my case, my German MasterCard.
Having the very same credit card on numerous accounts would be pretty obvious for Amazon and link the "accounts"...
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:51 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by HansTWN View Post
And people should be just as careful about calling Amazon dishonest. None of us here really has a clue about this case, including you and me.
I totally agree.

Quite frankly: Why should a highly successful, multi-billion corporate be "dishonest"?
Sarbanes-Oxley and the likes make such accusations highly unlikely.

And: From personal experience, I really can say, Amazon and Apple by far have the best customer support and service I've ever experienced.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:56 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by monkeygirl351 View Post
...geographic restrictions are stupid and shouldn't even exist...
I guess, everyone here agrees.
But to my knowledge, it's not up to Amazon (or Apple or Sony or Kobo or ...) to decide. It's the publishers.

I hate this as well.
I bought maybe 200 ePUBs from BooksOnBoard.
Then they had to follow the publisher's restrictions and shut me, being outside of the US, off.
Now, about every 8 weeks, they send me an email: "You still have reward dollars in your account".
Well, that's just great. Thanks for reminding me again and again. But now, after 734 unsuccessful attempts to buy from you again, you should stop sending those emails...
But again - not their fault...
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Old 10-24-2012, 08:43 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by mgmueller View Post
I guess, everyone here agrees.
But to my knowledge, it's not up to Amazon (or Apple or Sony or Kobo or ...) to decide. It's the publishers.
Having to deal with geographic restrictions is a money sink. Publishers either see more benefit than cost doing it this way, or there's actual legal issues involved with selling in multiple geographic regions.

I'm inclined to believe that even the publishers are doing it more out of necessity than desire to wring money out. Since the laws vary around the world, you have to make sure you comply with the laws of a region to sell stuff there. To avoid getting into trouble, that means when moving stuff around regions, you have to spend some time doing compliance work, and it isn't cheap. And with the internet and digital goods, it's even easier to accidentally find yourself in non-compliance if you don't geo-fence your stores.

Rational, it ain't, but I see it as a consequence of the geopolitical reality.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:24 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by mgmueller View Post
Quite frankly: Why should a highly successful, multi-billion corporate be "dishonest"?
I don't even think it's possible for an organization so complex to be honest. Consider this terms of service quote previously brought up by poster bhaak:

Quote:
Your rights under this Agreement will automatically terminate if you fail to comply with any term of this Agreement.
Obviously, it's not true that they enforce their terms of service automatically, or consistently, or, I think in most cases, at all. But I don't expect them to admit it.

If you want to judge Amazon, first judge the company on how it treats the people who work for them. Are they full-time? Do they get health benefits in countries where that is important? Are they union-busters? I don't mean to imply the record is all bad, as they did air-condition their warehouses.

Then, look at their impact on suppliers, especially those who create books. We discuss this a lot, pluses and minuses.

I'd put how they treat customers next.

As for how honest they are, meh. This is overrated. I doubt their lawyers will let them be honest.
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:27 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolenka View Post
Having to deal with geographic restrictions is a money sink. Publishers either see more benefit than cost doing it this way, or there's actual legal issues involved with selling in multiple geographic regions.
Authors want to (or course) maximize their potential earnings for their work. As a result authors & their agents offer the rights to specific regions to publishers in those regions. They've traditionally made more money this way than selling worldwide rights that may not get exercised everywhere depending on if a publisher has a local branch and distrobution channels (and ebooks rights are generally tied to print rights).
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:22 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg View Post
The phase you quote is not part of their terms of use, unless there is some other document you are basing this quotation on. Links are appreciated! Yes, "removing the DRM" would be a plausible paraphrase.
I didn't intend to suggest that this is a quotation from Amazon and I didn't think it would be regarded as such as it is clearly not legal speak.

The same link you gave has this
"you may not bypass, modify, defeat, or circumvent security features that protect the Kindle Content." ("Kindle Content" at the start of that page being defined as more or less everything digital that you buy through Amazon's store.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg View Post
We know your three word quotation, plausible as it may be, is not Amazon policy because boatloads of customers remove the DRM of purchased content and nothing is done about it. The only evidence we have for the OP case is that the dispute concerns cross-national purchasing, not DRM.

That quotation is acccurate, except that you seem to have invented the boldfacing. Amazon's whole sentence is false, and it would indeed be funny if Amazon boldfaced the word that's the most clearly a lie.
Yes, the emphasis is mine but be careful about your conclusion. Your rights are terminated if you don't comply with this terms of use. That they aren't currently enforced is a different matter. But that could change any time, maybe when one of the big publishers would urge Amazon to take action (OTOH Amazon is so big that almost any publisher would have a hard time doing this).

We don't know why Amazon is currently turning a blind eye on this situation. My guess would be that going for the small fishes would just be very bad PR for them and it would again draw more attention to the bad sides of DRM. But we don't really know.

Last edited by bhaak; 10-25-2012 at 03:28 AM.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:57 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by bhaak View Post
We don't know why Amazon is currently turning a blind eye on this situation. My guess would be that going for the small fishes would just be very bad PR for them and it would again draw more attention to the bad sides of DRM. But we don't really know.
We know that it is not in Amazon's interest to go after such "infractions" since (apart from the bad publicity) they are losing business. It would be so easy for them to close all loopholes. But those loopholes are there for a reason, they enable them to pull in more business and pretend that they are towing the publisher's party line. Amazon does that for physical goods, too. They ship to known transshipping companies, some other stores don't. They stick to the letter of the agreement, but still get what they want. They are much stricter for video and music, because the publishers demand that.

Amazon doesn't care about DRM, they care about sales.

Last edited by HansTWN; 10-25-2012 at 05:00 AM.
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:09 AM   #74
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The chat transcript posted by Iznogood could be legit. It sounds perfectly reasonable to me that Amazon will only close your account if you sell or upload to a filesharing network/site a book you removed the DRM from, not for merely removing the DRM from one for personal use (which they don't and can't know you are doing anyway, unless they illegal spy your PC/Kindle).
I just read this and got deeply disturbed that Amazon is not only DRMing their books, but watermarking them also... That is not cool.
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Old 10-25-2012, 01:38 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by AnemicOak View Post
Authors want to (or course) maximize their potential earnings for their work. As a result authors & their agents offer the rights to specific regions to publishers in those regions. They've traditionally made more money this way than selling worldwide rights that may not get exercised everywhere depending on if a publisher has a local branch and distrobution channels (and ebooks rights are generally tied to print rights).
That's a fair point.

I think it's still fair to say that the complexities involved here emerge from a complicated environment, and folks in the chain trying to minimize their exposure to legal troubles that can arise from that complicated environment. It's not ideal, and I am not sure you would find many people who disagree, but there's not really a good solution here other than even bigger publishers that have the resources to sell everywhere in the world... which itself isn't exactly ideal.
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