The worst of Amazon DRM

[HansTWN]

It is always amazing how quick people are to assume that it is Amazon's fault, given that we only have the customer's side of the story and not Amazon's. And we know and have experienced ourselves for many years that Amazon is a customer service oriented company and I have always been happy with them. By now information has already come to light that they did not delete anything.

I do think that Amazon should provide more information in such cases as to the exact nature of the abuses and which account was the linked account. And I don't like the tone of their boiler plate replies. Of course, everything may be very obvious to the person involved.

Why are people so quick to take any such story from an unknown source unquestioningly at face value? Usually there is a lot more to it, and the person complaining has withheld a lot of relevant information. I know corporation bashing is "in" right now, but I do give credit where credit is due. Amazon is a fine company. Is it possible that they made a mistake? Of course. Can we be sure they did and acted unfairly? Absolutely not.

And yes, always back up. Not backing up is gross negligence.

[Pushka]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

It is always amazing how quick people are to assume that it is Amazon's fault,.

Amazon created an information vacuum in their responses. So people fill in the missing parts.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Pushka

Amazon created an information vacuum in their responses. So people fill in the missing parts.

Quite possibly, yes. But even that is not certain since we didn't see the actual e-mails from Amazon.

[bhaak]

Originally Posted by monkeygirl351

This is interesting and I've seen this topic come up at various times. i do believe that it is a flaw in the system. I like Amazon and I love my kindle, but i don't think their system is perfect. I really think DRM and geographic restrictions are stupid and shouldn't even exist. I mean it really doesn't slow the people that are going to pirate for the sake of being a pirate. It hurts the honest people that aren't aware of how to disinfect their purchases.

Yes, it does and I really hope more honest people will be hurt by that so that more people learn about this. If people continue buying such e-books it's their own fault that the companies don't change.

After all, if even the music companies can change their policies, every other company can as well.

Originally Posted by monkeygirl351

I buy from amazon and many other online ebook stores. Before the book even hits my kindle it goes through calibre and my various plugins to get cleaned.

Using calibre to disinfect DRM-infected e-books is not a solution but a dirty workaround.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by bhaak

Using calibre to disinfect DRM-infected e-books is not a solution but a dirty workaround.

Speak for yourself!

Anyway, given the choice of not buying a book or buying a book with DRM I can remove I always choose the latter.

[bhaak]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Speak for yourself!

I do, but it is a dirty hack. As is getting standard Epubs on a Kindle.

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Anyway, given the choice of not buying a book or buying a book with DRM

You can almost always buy a paper book.

If there are really only DRM ebooks and no paper books available and they don't want to publish a DRM-free version, tell them that they just lost money.

Originally Posted by HansTWN

I can remove I always choose the latter.

You know that "removing the DRM" is a violation of Amazon's Terms of Use and that "Your rights under this Agreement will automatically terminate if you fail to comply with any term of this Agreement" and "Amazon may immediately revoke your access to the Kindle Store and the Kindle Content without refund of any fees"?

[Iznogood]

About half way down in the comments to the blog referenced to in the first post in this thread, there is a link to a chat between a worried Amazon customer and the customer service:

https://p.6core.net/p/hx5voap6k84ndcrn

Of course the transcription from the conversation can be tempered with or even totally fake, but it sounds as though Amazon denies that this ever happened

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by bhaak

I do, but it is a dirty hack. As is getting standard Epubs on a Kindle.



You can almost always buy a paper book.

If there are really only DRM ebooks and no paper books available and they don't want to publish a DRM-free version, tell them that they just lost money.



You know that "removing the DRM" is a violation of Amazon's Terms of Use and that "Your rights under this Agreement will automatically terminate if you fail to comply with any term of this Agreement" and "Amazon may immediately revoke your access to the Kindle Store and the Kindle Content without refund of any fees"?

I don't like reading pbooks, and pbooks are always more expensive for me with overseas shipping charges -- no matter which one I choose.

Sorry, I won't stick it to myself and not read a book just because it has DRM . I agree that DRM is a sick dog that should be put to sleep. But this is not the way. I would not buy if I couldn't remove DRM, but since I can I grudgingly accept the status quo and move on.

Should Amazon ever close my account and remove my access (the probability of that being only slightly greater than that I will be abducted by aliens) I will just take my business elsewhere and I have my backups. Sorry, I won't lose much sleep over this. My guess is that you tremble for weeks every time after you discovered you have been going 51 in a 50 mile speed limit zone?

And Amazon will use such drastic measures only as a last resort. Anything else would be stupid, especially losing a customer like me.

[carld]

Originally Posted by bhaak

You can almost always buy a paper book.

No thanks. I'd rather trust Amazon to archive my books than attempt to read them in paper. I bought an ereader for a reason.

[Dragoro]

Originally Posted by bhaak

Yes, it does and I really hope more honest people will be hurt by that so that more people learn about this. If people continue buying such e-books it's their own fault that the companies don't change.

After all, if even the music companies can change their policies, every other company can as well.



Using calibre to disinfect DRM-infected e-books is not a solution but a dirty workaround.

Your assuming she was honest. Id argue she wasnt since she tried to game the system.

As for you wishing honest people getting hurt, what kind of low life person are you?

[monkeygirl351]

Originally Posted by bhaak

I do, but it is a dirty hack. As is getting standard Epubs on a Kindle.



You can almost always buy a paper book.

If there are really only DRM ebooks and no paper books available and they don't want to publish a DRM-free version, tell them that they just lost money.



You know that "removing the DRM" is a violation of Amazon's Terms of Use and that "Your rights under this Agreement will automatically terminate if you fail to comply with any term of this Agreement" and "Amazon may immediately revoke your access to the Kindle Store and the Kindle Content without refund of any fees"?

Yup I know that getting epubs on the kindle is a hack. I also know that removing DRM is technically a violation of the Terms of Agreement. I choose to go that route, because I want to pay for my books. I know several websites where you can get all the bestsellers for free, but I don't feel comfortable doing that. I also back up every amazon purchase and remove the DRM. If Amazon closed my account today, I would have lost nothing as all my purchased and free books are backed up in calibre. I would then take my purchases elsewhere. I've bought quite a few books on BandN, smashwords, kobo ect. I also like the fact that if I decide that I don't want to stick with Kindle then all my Kindle purchases wouldn't become obsolete should I decide on a Nook or Kobo ect. I would just convert and go.

I too am not interested in paperbooks anymore. Sure I buy one here or there, but I live in an apartment and space is limited, plus I hate moving endless boxes of books. So yeah, while I am taking a risk removing the DRM, I think it is better than just going and getting the book for free elsewhere. Plus some of those Kindle ebook prices are crazy. 15 bucks for an ebook, no thanks, but if I did purchase one at that price, I better be able to do whatever I want with it!

[Dylan Tomorrow]

The chat transcript posted by Iznogood could be legit. It sounds perfectly reasonable to me that Amazon will only close your account if you sell or upload to a filesharing network/site a book you removed the DRM from, not for merely removing the DRM from one for personal use (which they don't and can't know you are doing anyway, unless they illegal spy your PC/Kindle).

[bhaak]

Originally Posted by Dragoro

Your assuming she was honest. I'd argue she wasn't since she tried to game the system.

We don't need to assume that she was honest. If she was dishonest she was really stupid at covering her back.

So I think it's a valid guess that she was clueless and that is bad. I'd rather people wouldn't buying DRM ebooks but I can't force them not to but if they do they should be fully aware of what they are doing and what can happen. IMO Lynn didn't know and cases like this help to inform people.

BTW, buying DRM-infected ebooks with terms of use that explicitly disallow removing the DRM and then removing the DRM isn't gaming the system?

Originally Posted by Dragoro

As for you wishing honest people getting hurt, what kind of low life person are you?

Cases like this show what Amazon can do (remote wiping MY device that I own!) and these things happen. If people don't know this, they can't make informed choices.

DRM did, does and will hurt innocent and not so innocent people. That's a fact. The sooner the more people are aware of the consequences and the less surprising damage will happen in the future.

[bhaak]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Sorry, I won't stick it to myself and not read a book just because it has DRM . I agree that DRM is a sick dog that should be put to sleep. But this is not the way. I would not buy if I couldn't remove DRM, but since I can I grudgingly accept the status quo and move on.

And in your opinion what would be the way that could lead to putting the sick dog to sleep?

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Should Amazon ever close my account and remove my access (the probability of that being only slightly greater than that I will be abducted by aliens) I will just take my business elsewhere and I have my backups. Sorry, I won't lose much sleep over this. My guess is that you tremble for weeks every time after you discovered you have been going 51 in a 50 mile speed limit zone?

To follow up on your analogy, no, I don't constantly watch my speed in fear of crossing the speed limit. Because where I'm driving, there is no speed limit!

I find it much more worrisome that other posters in this thread don't connect their device to WiFi because of what Amazon could possibly do with it. With their OWN device that they really OWN. Which Amazon doesn't even deny (whereas you don't own "your" ebooks, you only have a license) but still do things that could very well be illegal under many computer hacking and unauthorized access laws (IANAL but I don't think you can make any action legal with their license agreement).

Originally Posted by HansTWN

And Amazon will use such drastic measures only as a last resort. Anything else would be stupid, especially losing a customer like me.

Lynn's case didn't look like a "last resort" action. More like a kafkaesque "collateral damage". Sorry, it's naive to think that a single customer (regardless of how much you're paying from them) is valuable to a multi-gazillion company. If you happen to somehow meet their "close this account" criteria, your account will be closed. It won't matter what strange and coincidental circumstances led them to think that you did.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by bhaak

And in your opinion what would be the way that could lead to putting the sick dog to sleep?



To follow up on your analogy, no, I don't constantly watch my speed in fear of crossing the speed limit. Because where I'm driving, there is no speed limit!

I find it much more worrisome that other posters in this thread don't connect their device to WiFi because of what Amazon could possibly do with it. With their OWN device that they really OWN. Which Amazon doesn't even deny (whereas you don't own "your" ebooks, you only have a license) but still do things that could very well be illegal under many computer hacking and unauthorized access laws (IANAL but I don't think you can make any action legal with their license agreement).



Lynn's case didn't look like a "last resort" action. More like a kafkaesque "collateral damage". Sorry, it's naive to think that a single customer (regardless of how much you're paying from them) is valuable to a multi-gazillion company. If you happen to somehow meet their "close this account" criteria, your account will be closed. It won't matter what strange and coincidental circumstances led them to think that you did.

The DRM dog will die a natural death and be replaced by watermarks sooner or later as more and more people wake up and run into problems (cases like this or people switching devices).

The license says so --- but in most places it is actually legal to make a copy for personal backup. Some rights you cannot just sign away, DRM removal hasn't really been tested in court in most countries. So the most they can do is stop selling to me.

As for the case in question --- we really know very little and I reserve judgement. I am not about to unilaterally declare Amazon at fault just because somebody I know zilch about publishes this accusation.