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Old 11-09-2012, 06:59 AM   #241
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...My basic assumption is that it is possible to devise systems for embedding identification information in a file that make removing such information a bit of a hassle.
Dream on. Even many encryption systems are broken now, so the idea that you can have an unbreakable social drm is a pipe dream.

Wouldn't it be funny, though, if everyone inserted YOUR name as the identification in the bypassed social drm, and uploaded it in mass to the pirate sites. I'm sure we could "eventually" get you out of jail, well, we probably could. Maybe. If the stars were aligned just right, etc.

Instead of focusing on drm, why not focus on making ebooks more available, gosh even libraries for heaven's sake!! Get rid of the geo problems. Make lending possible to my friends. Make pricing reasonable. Kinda like Itunes music.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:48 AM   #242
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Dream on. Even many encryption systems are broken now, so the idea that you can have an unbreakable social drm is a pipe dream.

Wouldn't it be funny, though, if everyone inserted YOUR name as the identification in the bypassed social drm, and uploaded it in mass to the pirate sites. I'm sure we could "eventually" get you out of jail, well, we probably could. Maybe. If the stars were aligned just right, etc.

Instead of focusing on drm, why not focus on making ebooks more available, gosh even libraries for heaven's sake!! Get rid of the geo problems. Make lending possible to my friends. Make pricing reasonable. Kinda like Itunes music.
You know, of course, that itunes music files are watermarked and can be traced back to the original buyer? And have they put anyone in jail yet?
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:49 AM   #243
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Instead of focusing on drm, why not focus on making ebooks more available, gosh even libraries for heaven's sake!! Get rid of the geo problems. Make lending possible to my friends. Make pricing reasonable. Kinda like Itunes music.
I didn't know that iTunes allowed you to lend music to your friends. How does one do so?
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:50 AM   #244
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I didn't know that iTunes allowed you to lend music to your friends. How does one do so?
You send them a copy of the file and ask them to delete it after they've listened to it. Music in the iTunes store doesn't have any DRM now.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:52 AM   #245
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You send them a copy of the file and ask them to delete it after they've listened to it. Music in the iTunes store doesn't have any DRM now.
You could of course do it that way, but that sounds like copyright infringement to me. Is this "lending" permitted by the terms of the iTunes licence agreement?
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:55 AM   #246
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You could of course do it that way, but that sounds like copyright infringement to me. Is this "lending" permitted by the terms of the iTunes licence agreement?
I interpreted your "allowed" as a technical question, since iTunes music used to have DRM. I'm pretty sure such behaviour isn't allowed in the permission sense.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:57 AM   #247
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Thanks, Paul. I interpreted vaughnmr's comment that iTunes allowed lending to your friends as meaning that it was legally allowed, as opposed to technically possible, but perhaps he simply meant that iTunes makes piracy easier, which, I have to confess, I don't personally see as being a benefit.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:14 AM   #248
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In fact, only people with a minimum of technical knowledge can apply DRM removal tools, so the current DRM system leaves most people with crippled media libraries.
It's true that a certain level of technical knowledge (or access to someone with that knowledge) is required to remove DRM. However, I don't think those with little to no technical knowledge would be greatly helped by your ideas. People with little or no technical knowledge are more likely to get viruses, or get their machines hacked. Consequently, their ebooks could appear on pirate sites without their knowledge.

It seems to me that your proposals, while well-meaning, would mean that non-technical people go from running the risk of losing access to their books, to running the risk of being prosecuted for piracy.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:56 AM   #249
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Thanks, Paul. I interpreted vaughnmr's comment that iTunes allowed lending to your friends as meaning that it was legally allowed, as opposed to technically possible, but perhaps he simply meant that iTunes makes piracy easier, which, I have to confess, I don't personally see as being a benefit.
Sorry I misled you, I wasn't trying to imply lending with music, just ebooks. Right now most major publishers restrict personal lending and even public library usage.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:17 PM   #250
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You could of course do it that way, but that sounds like copyright infringement to me. Is this "lending" permitted by the terms of the iTunes licence agreement?
Lending within the family (local network) is built in to iTunes. I think it is called Home Sharing.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:28 PM   #251
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Lending within the family (local network) is built in to iTunes. I think it is called Home Sharing.
Yes, and it's pretty cool. By sharing our libraries, my roommate and I can listen to each other's collections via iTunes. It's crossplatform (he's a Mac, I'm a PC) and works very much like Windows Media sharing. (It's actually a little easier to use than the Windows equivalent, because setting up sharing permissions is a simpler process.) Between that, Windows Media shares and my two DLNA servers, our network has 6 media servers listed.

Edit - DERP posted something from wrong thread.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:28 PM   #252
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Lending within the family (local network) is built in to iTunes. I think it is called Home Sharing.
That's not lending.

If that was what was meant by 'lending', then 'lending' was available for every Kindle book because you can add multiple devices to your account. There would have been no need for the actual lending feature.

The primary difference (other than restricting it to people you treat as trusted members of your household) is that lending implies you no longer have it and someone else does, for a period of time.
With this same-account or same-lan sharing, multiple copies are in use, and you all have it at the same time.

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Old 11-09-2012, 03:02 PM   #253
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People with little or no technical knowledge are more likely to get viruses, or get their machines hacked. Consequently, their ebooks could appear on pirate sites without their knowledge.
It seems to me that your proposals, while well-meaning, would mean that non-technical people go from running the risk of losing access to their books, to running the risk of being prosecuted for piracy.
Interesting, and correct, objection. Actually, this kind of problem (security of home PCs for "everyday" users) has a much broader scope and impact than the limited one we are considering here; so I hope that technical solutions for the broader problem will also help avoid the "pirates stole my library!" scenario.

And there's another reason why I consider the "pirates stole my library!" scenario as unlikely. I suppose (but did not do any research about it, so feel free to prove me wrong) that most of the illegal uploaders of files are people who do that for "fun", not professional criminals. Moreover, the level of technical ability needed to strip DRM from an MP3 file or ebook and upload it on a torrent site is pretty low.
For both reasons, I see as pretty unlikely that this kind of people will turn into expert hackers and will turn to doing something clearly criminal such as breaking into other people's PCs and stealing files.
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Old 11-09-2012, 03:26 PM   #254
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Dream on. Even many encryption systems are broken now, so the idea that you can have an unbreakable social drm is a pipe dream.
That's why I never said that. I wrote "My basic assumption is that it is possible to devise systems for embedding identification information in a file that make removing such information a bit of a hassle."

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Wouldn't it be funny, though, if everyone inserted YOUR name as the identification in the bypassed social drm, and uploaded it in mass to the pirate sites. I'm sure we could "eventually" get you out of jail, well, we probably could. Maybe. If the stars were aligned just right, etc.
Wouldn't it be funny if you read my proposal before commenting on it? What you write here is not possible.

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Instead of focusing on drm, why not focus on making ebooks more available, gosh even libraries for heaven's sake!! Get rid of the geo problems. Make lending possible to my friends. Make pricing reasonable. Kinda like Itunes music.
Lending is prevented by DRM. Pricing of ebooks is high also because vendors, thanks to the "walled gardens" created by DRM, hold most consumers captive of their ebook distribution platforms.
DRM is a key issue.
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Old 11-09-2012, 03:28 PM   #255
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For both reasons, I see as pretty unlikely that this kind of people will turn into expert hackers and will turn to doing something clearly criminal such as breaking into other people's PCs and stealing files.
A more likely scenario is this: Mary uses a computer but isn't technically inclined when it comes to fixing issues with it. When she has a problem, she has her grandson John or her nephew Bill fix it. Or that nice boy Andy that lives next door who's good with computers. After all, he was probably the one who helped her with her new gadget in the first place. Suddenly Mary's watermarked ebook collection is on the internet.

I used to do tech support in a retirement community. I lived in that community for over a year. The DRM scheme you propose brings this very scenario to mind every time I think about it.
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