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Old 11-04-2012, 03:25 AM   #211
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Sure you do. You store them on your device, you can install a desktop eReader app and download them to your desktop, if you want to be prudent you can then copy them to USB memory, SDCard, external hard drive, upload them do Dropbox or several cloud storage units if you're paranoid enough. You are by no means limited to your purveyor's storage.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:02 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Kumabjorn View Post
You store them on your device, you can install a desktop eReader app and download them to your desktop, if you want to be prudent you can then copy them to USB memory, SDCard, external hard drive, upload them do Dropbox or several cloud storage units if you're paranoid enough. You are by no means limited to your purveyor's storage.
But many people just don't know that. And while ignorance of the law is no excuse, apparently ignorance of a vendor's TOS (not to mention the inner-workings of a gizmo's ecosystem that no one forced them to buy) IS an excuse. And we need caped crusaders to protect those Ignorant by Choice.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:37 AM   #213
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But many people just don't know that. And while ignorance of the law is no excuse, apparently ignorance of a vendor's TOS (not to mention the inner-workings of a gizmo's ecosystem that no one forced them to buy) IS an excuse. And we need caped crusaders to protect those Ignorant by Choice.
And to educate us ignoramuses so we can liberate ourselves from the shackles of restricted reading. Where would we stand without the noble coding and tireless efforts of those who bask in the eternal sunshine of binary erudition?
AA
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:05 PM   #214
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I've not seen any such reports, but even if it were exactly true, that's not a time limit. You would be free to re download and keep reading indefinitely.
Only in that the original stops working (and at that point you are dependent on the original source being in business, so you can redownload ... assuming you even want to re-read at that point, of course).

And the Kindle edition expiring when you upgrade your device (or break it or get a new computer), IS an issue, if you are not 100% certain that the company will still be in business later or still playing with ebooks at that time (which, I'll admit, is a fairly safe bet at this point, for Amazon, but much less so for other companies; with Apple, the safer bet is that they'll hold your books hostage until you purchase additional hardware, as has already started to happen to those with older iPhones/iPads - with the next release of iBooks, I fully expect my iPad to be left in the dust, along with the original iPhone).

I've purchased books from companies that have gone under or been purchased by others. In two cases, the purchasing company made the books available by moving your account to another company; with the rest, well, hope you made backups.

Microsoft has now orphaned LIT with DRM, so those that don't strip DRM will find their books unreadable once their authorized computers fail (and it wasn't that easy to get one authorized in the last few years, anyway).

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Old 11-04-2012, 01:12 PM   #215
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Ahem... just a moment, I tripped in my cape... :-P
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but for what I know the following is true:

People who buy ebooks from Amazon will lose all of them if and when Amazon folds and their Kindle (or Kindle reader application) breaks. They can avoid the risk of losing everything only by violating the license of their books and strip the DRM from them before backing them up. Such a violation, even if it is legal where the user resides (which is not to be taken for granted), is a risk in itself: in fact it enables Amazon to terminate their account (and maybe do something worse), according to the licensing terms.

It's not ignorance that keeps people from backing up their books in a form that keeps them readable even if Amazon folds (better: it's not only ignorance). Such a thing is actually prohibited by the license.
You have only two choices:
- gambling the continued existence of your whole library on the continued health of your book vendor (for decades!);
or
- engaging in unauthorized, and possibly illegal, activities that can lead the vendor to terminate your account (thus losing at least some of the services that you "bought" with the license).

This cannot be called "freedom". I think that the very minimum level of freedom would be having things called with their name: when you buy a limited license to access an ebook, you are not buying the ebook. And calling the first with the name of the latter should not be permitted by the law.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:14 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Kumabjorn View Post
Sure you do. You store them on your device, you can install a desktop eReader app and download them to your desktop, if you want to be prudent you can then copy them to USB memory, SDCard, external hard drive, upload them do Dropbox or several cloud storage units if you're paranoid enough. You are by no means limited to your purveyor's storage.
Just be careful keeping them on dropbox - make sure they are not in any public area, as more than one person has had their dropbox accounts closed (and all files lost) due to having their books on them (or, so they have reported and I strongly suspect they were illegally serving copies of them to the public, since they were using the dropbox storage with calibre; however, just having them publicly accessible makes them available for detection by spiders and then having a DMCA takedown notice get your account killed).
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:19 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by BoldlyDubious View Post
This cannot be called "freedom". I think that the very minimum level of freedom would be having things called with their name: when you buy a limited license to access an ebook, you are not buying the ebook. And calling the first with the name of the latter should not be permitted by the law.
Again ... "fine print" has been around much longer than ebooks. Caveat emptor. We don't need new legislation to protect people who practice leaping without ever taking a glance at how far away the ground might be.

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Old 11-04-2012, 02:57 PM   #218
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Again ... "fine print" has been around much longer than ebooks. Caveat emptor. We don't need new legislation to protect people who practice leaping without ever taking a glance at how far away the ground might be.
We need legislation, though, to prevent companies from telling people lies. (Though I don't think that new legislation is needed here)
If people who practice leaping are sold "parachutes" that they find out -just when they need them- not to be actually parachutes, this is not a matter of fine print. It's very big, and very misleading, print.

Just to be extra clear: if Amazon (and its competitors) sell limited licenses to access an ebook, they should call them just that. No "buy the ebook" nonsense. You are not buying an ebook when you click "add to cart".
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:58 PM   #219
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You are not buying an ebook when you click "add to cart".
You may not be. I, however, am completely satisfied that I bought an ebook. What they may have intended to sell me is of very little consequence once the merchandise is in my hands—possession being nine-tenths and all. And because I took the time to research what I was getting myself into, I have no need to worry about companies going out of business or credit cards expiring, or technology/formats changing. If I couldn't have satisfied my own personal sense of "ownership," I would have stuck to traditional print-books—something anyone unsatisfied with the state of ebook "ownership" is always free to do. Know what you're paying for and you can never be taken.

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Old 11-04-2012, 04:08 PM   #220
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You may not be. I, however, am completely satisfied that I bought an ebook. What they may have intended to sell me is of very little consequence once the merchandise is in my hands—possession being nine-tenths and all.
What you are saying is (analogy wars!): I am completely satisfied that I was sold a used car instead of a new one, at the price of a new one, with the dealer telling me that the car was brand new. In fact, I studied the dealer's office while I was there, and that night I burgled in and stole back my cash.

I don't think that this is the right way to manage the issue. The right way is: no selling something to people making them think that it's something else.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:01 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by BoldlyDubious View Post
What you are saying is (analogy wars!): I am completely satisfied that I was sold a used car instead of a new one, at the price of a new one, with the dealer telling me that the car was brand new. In fact, I studied the dealer's office while I was there, and that night I burgled in and stole back my cash.
I'm not saying anything like remotely like that. That's why analogies should only be used to clarify your own position rather than to interpret/twist what someone else is saying. My position doesn't require interpretation. It can't be made more clear with an unrelated analogy. Please don't try to re-word something that doesn't need re-wording simply because you don't agree with what was said, and wish for it to sound more silly.

A) Not everyone think's they're being "sold" anything that's somehow inherently inferior.
B) Not everyone cares that the vendor is "lying" because they know the truth, and the truth doesn't affect the product's value in their eyes one iota.
C) I'm comfortable with the quality of... my perceived ownership of... and the value of what I'm paying for. I, and others like me, are simply not being taken advantage of.
D) Why are others allowing themselves to be taken advantage of, and in need of some legislative magic bullet that can miraculously end every last vestige of deception in sales/advertising and save them from their own dumb?

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Old 11-05-2012, 12:41 AM   #222
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BoldlyDubious wants the retailer to shoulder the responsibility, DiapDealer says; "Too heck with that, I take care of my situation as I see fit". One is idealistic the other pragmatic. When I discovered DRM I was 100% in the BD camp, I couldn't believe that I was taken for a sucker, rage flowed through my veins, then DD showed me the light, the simple solution to take ownership of your own situation, so to license renters I say; "Now I pwn your ass".
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:31 AM   #223
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BoldlyDubious wants the retailer to shoulder the responsibility, DiapDealer says; "Too heck with that, I take care of my situation as I see fit". One is idealistic the other pragmatic. When I discovered DRM I was 100% in the BD camp, I couldn't believe that I was taken for a sucker, rage flowed through my veins, then DD showed me the light, the simple solution to take ownership of your own situation, so to license renters I say; "Now I pwn your ass".
You are right :-) I wasn't discussing what you or DiapDealer do.

To DiapDealer I say: I think that the law is there to protect people (including those that are ignorant, dumb, or even willingly ignorant or dumb) from abuse. In other markets companies can't get away with misleading labeling of their product, while in the market of digital goods this is tolerated. I think this is mainly due to the current lack of an accepted definition of what "an ebook" or "a song" are, but maybe I'm wrong.

The fact that you can defend from muggers by learning Kung-Fu does not mean that the mugging should be allowed, or that if you don't learn Kung-Fu it's your own fault if you are mugged. Mugging should be prevented even if some people don't care if they are mugged. (Note: analogy only used to explain my own point :-P )
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Old 11-05-2012, 02:09 AM   #224
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As illegal as mugging is, the law don't do, to paraphrase Ned Flanders, diddly squiddly for you when you are at the receiving end of a gun. Only after the fact and if the mugger is caught. In your example, I'm not sure laws will be very helpful if Amazon defaults and their servers are no longer maintained. That is not to demean your righteousness nor your rage, I was there and I completely get it, I just think it is an unfortunate fact that electrons can't be caught only temporarily stored. Lawmakers are always behind the technological curve, in this case as in so many others.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:38 AM   #225
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In your example, I'm not sure laws will be very helpful if Amazon defaults and their servers are no longer maintained.
You are right. Actually, what I would like to see are laws that protect consumers before they buy, by forcing sellers of digital goods to state clearly what their products are.
Maybe most people will be comfortable with buying licenses, and so will continue ignoring the issue. But they will choose to ignore it, not be fooled into doing that by intentional misuse of commonplace words ("book", "song", ...).

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Lawmakers are always behind the technological curve, in this case as in so many others.
I perfectly agree with this as well. I half think that the actual issue is that there is not (for what I know) a legally accepted definition of what an "ebook" is, so every company is allowed to call "ebook" whatever they want.
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