Time for footnotes

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by derangedhermit

Some people state that all footnotes should be converted to endnotes for e-books. That simply doesn't work as well for some author's style. Reading Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels and not having the footnotes "right there" loses something special.

Footnotes HAVE to be converted to something or other, given that no current reading device supports footnotes in the true sense of the word - ie notes at the foot of the current page. (Other than for things like PDF files.)

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by derangedhermit

Some people state that all footnotes should be converted to endnotes for e-books. That simply doesn't work as well for some author's style. Reading Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels and not having the footnotes "right there" loses something special.

It is reasonable to have a mix of endnotes and more ready reference notes when appropriate. I sometimes include read reference style notes in a following paragraph set apart with some delimination such as font size change or brackets so that they are handy for the user and no back link is generally needed.

Dale

[derangedhermit]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Footnotes HAVE to be converted to something or other, given that no current reading device supports footnotes in the true sense of the word - ie notes at the foot of the current page. (Other than for things like PDF files.)

My point is that the concept of footnotes is useful, and any inabilities in markup languages or rendering engines should be seen by authors and readers as temporary deficiencies that need quick remedy. WYSIWYG (haven't used that acronym in a while) word processors show us that it is possible to include footnotes in the scope of reflowing text.

In the Discworld case, in the meantime, I would do as DaleDe mentions, and include them as delimited notes in line with the text, as sidebars or "between bars" beneath the referencing paragraph.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by derangedhermit

My point is that the concept of footnotes is useful, and any inabilities in markup languages or rendering engines should be seen by authors and readers as temporary deficiencies that need quick remedy. WYSIWYG (haven't used that acronym in a while) word processors show us that it is possible to include footnotes in the scope of reflowing text.

Well...that's not really the same thing. We can't compare a word processor, which, while WYSIWYG, has the opportunity to reflow pages when asked, with an ePUB, which has the never-ending task of constant reflowing--every time someone puts it on another device, when they change font-sizes, etc. That's a fairly demanding request, requiring a goodly amount of computing power and code. I think that javascript pop-ups/tooltips, etc., would be an easier solution, device-wise, than adding that much reflowability, on the fly. I could be wrong--you guys have far more coding-fu than I; but that's my $.02.

Hitch

[grannyGrumpy]

I'm sorry if this is a bit of a hijack --- apologies to GraciousMe, and someone please let me know if this would be better in a new thread --- but the thread was here and handy, and my question-bump is itching, so ....

I am converting a lot of public domain short stories (Mark Twain), and the source scans often show a footnote for the original publication in some newspaper or magazine. Does this information even need to appear in the text as footnote or endnote? Might it be more appropriate as information on the in-line ToC? (or possibly an appendix... I'm agnostic about reference material.) It seems over-kill to make a linked footnote just to say "this was first published in Blankety Mag, Nov 1899".

Also, Dale De said

It is reasonable to have a mix of endnotes and more ready reference notes when appropriate.

, which I was glad to see, because I had decided to do that. Some of the author's "footnotes" are a wonderful addition to the narrative, while others are pure historical reference, etc.

[GraciousMe]

Finally I´ve had a chance to see my epub-book in a couple of readers, I mean readers not in a computer. An iPad, even iPhone.

After that experience I will remove a number of footnotes. There was no precision in the jumping to and fro, rather it added an element of restlesness to the reading experience.

I will make parentheses of many footnotes and save them for the paper version, where it will be *I* who decide how a page looks, and where there ARE pages, not just screens.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by GraciousMe

I will make parentheses of many footnotes and save them for the paper version, where it will be *I* who decide how a page looks, and where there ARE pages, not just screens.

Reflow is a feature. If you feel the urge to fight that feature... you're just not ready for your work to make the transition to any of the popular ebook formats. Perhaps a PDF would better suit your needs. Good luck, whatever you decide.

[derangedhermit]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Well...that's not really the same thing. We can't compare a word processor, which, while WYSIWYG, has the opportunity to reflow pages when asked, with an ePUB, which has the never-ending task of constant reflowing--every time someone puts it on another device, when they change font-sizes, etc. That's a fairly demanding request, requiring a goodly amount of computing power and code. I think that javascript pop-ups/tooltips, etc., would be an easier solution, device-wise, than adding that much reflowability, on the fly. I could be wrong--you guys have far more coding-fu than I; but that's my $.02.

Hitch

It's exactly the same. I just took a document with 20 footnotes and a) changed the text size and b) changed the margins. LibreOffice behaved just as I would like a reader to do. I could have also changed the page size as well, and seen the wanted results.

I agree it may be a slow operation when the reflow including footnotes is performed on e-readers (not on iPads or PC e-reader software, etc). But Moore's law will continue to have an impact on e-reader processors, so the issue is temporary. Even if not, I can always pick to use a tablet to read on that does have the horsepower.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by derangedhermit

I agree it may be a slow operation when the reflow including footnotes is performed on e-readers (not on iPads or PC e-reader software, etc). But Moore's law will continue to have an impact on e-reader processors, so the issue is temporary. Even if not, I can always pick to use a tablet to read on that does have the horsepower.

Exactly. The problem isn't a lack of computer power in eReaders, it's a lack of a standard coding method for footnotes in the ePub spec.

[theducks]

Isn't putting a note off-page way more intensive (and consumptive of power), slower to access, than a footnote (on page) at the end of the current file?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by theducks

Isn't putting a note off-page way more intensive (and consumptive of power), slower to access, than a footnote (on page) at the end of the current file?

For an ePub book, yes, because the device has to load and parse the new "flow" when you jump to the footnote, then reload and reparse the original flow when you jump back again.

Doesn't apply to a Kindle book, either Mobi or KF8.

[ElMiko]

Originally Posted by HarryT

For an ePub book, yes, because the device has to load and parse the new "flow" when you jump to the footnote, then reload and reparse the original flow when you jump back again.

Doesn't apply to a Kindle book, either Mobi or KF8.

Just out of curiosity, why not for Kindle formats?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ElMiko

Just out of curiosity, why not for Kindle formats?

I should restate it. It does apply to some extent, but much less so. The computationally-intensive aspect of reading an ePub file is constructing what's called the "parse tree" which stores the "state" at each point within the file. Mobi is stateless, hence there's no parse tree required.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by derangedhermit

It's exactly the same. I just took a document with 20 footnotes and a) changed the text size and b) changed the margins. LibreOffice behaved just as I would like a reader to do. I could have also changed the page size as well, and seen the wanted results.

I agree it may be a slow operation when the reflow including footnotes is performed on e-readers (not on iPads or PC e-reader software, etc). But Moore's law will continue to have an impact on e-reader processors, so the issue is temporary. Even if not, I can always pick to use a tablet to read on that does have the horsepower.

I don't think it's the same thing. This isn't to be argumentative, but I don't. It's one thing to reflow a document on a PC or Mac, with all that computing power, and another to reflow a book that can be on any sized device, with any number of fonts, or a limited number of fonts, each set different on each device. When a Mac or PC reflows a document, it has a given number of variables; the document has x or x+y fonts, and a page-size or margin-size. An ebook has a device size, a margin size, number of fonts available and number of font sizes available. And it may or may not rotate 90 degrees. I simply believe that it's a boatload of permutations.

I also don't know what the big damn deal is. I don't see any difference whatsoever in jumping to a footnote at the end of a chapter versus jumping to one at the end of the book. I have never found it to "lack precision in jumping," nor disruptive to the reading experience. I suppose if one has intellectually lazy readers, they might decide to skip the footnotes, but wouldn't they, anyway?

Sorry, just feels like a kerfuffle in a kettle. I love the linked footnotes in books, myself. Footnotes on the printed page are fine, but we've all seen footnotes that are so long that they run to two pages, sometimes 3, lest they take over the text. How would a reflowing e-reader handle that?

{shrug}. Like I said, I don't think that reflowing in ebooks is really the same as reflowing on a virtual sheet of typing paper, given all the permutations, and the (possible) issue with longer footnotes. I agree that javascript pop-up notes, on tap, would be very nice, but the way they are mostly done now works fine, and very "precisely." I also think that our chances of seeing the ePUB spec come into a nice single-file compliance is...nil. ;-)

Hitch

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by theducks

Isn't putting a note off-page way more intensive (and consumptive of power), slower to access, than a footnote (on page) at the end of the current file?

A file is typically more than one page so you comment doesn't really make much sense. Placing an end note at the end of the current file is typically not on the current page. But an eBook reader typically loads and parses an entire file at once into its ram memory so a jump within a file (current ram contents) is way faster than loading another file doing the jump and then reloading the original file. A foot note on page is not generally noticeably faster than a link to an end note at the end of the chapter.

Dale