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Old 09-17-2012, 10:51 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by HansTWN View Post
The UN gave the Senkakus/DiaoYuTai to Japan after WW2. And the way China was being treated in the 19th century is the way they treat their neighbors now (Taiwan, Tibet, Mongolia, Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia). China is the last great colonial power.
If China is the "last great colonial power" what about all of the eastern and southern provinces of Russia that were once independent countries?
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:54 PM   #107
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Facts...

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1.)Little emperors --- I suggest you read up on the "one-child policy". Due to this policy virtually ALL children are single children. This policy has been rigorously enforced over the decades, and only ethnic minorities (which account for only around 5% of the population) were exempt. It has been only slightly loosened over the last few years, still not nationwide. That means, basically, that every worker is a "little emperor", except the old ones.
From wikipedia "Little Emperors are primarily an urban phenomenon. The one-child policy is not as rigorously enforced in the countryside as in the urban communities and, given the value of labor, only children are not prevalent within rural communities. Economic development has not had as large an impact outside of urban centers." Sounds more plausible than what you've stated as fact.

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2.)Workers from rural areas --- Did you know that Shenzhen and Dongguan were little fishing villages up to the mid 80s? Dongguan went from 80,000 to several million, all temporary immigrants from other provinces. Did you know that the number of workers in the factories in Guangdong exceeds the number of the original inhabitants? So yes, all the workers came from rural areas. What is wrong with that? That is how it worked everywhere in the world. People in rural areas looking for work in the cities --- how "awful". And the workers have money to send home to their families in rural areas, "disgusting"!. The workers from rural areas, 18-22 when they start out, are far away from the strict parental supervision and, believe it or not, like young people in the West like to party and not work around the clock. Worker in general now prefer not to work overtime. Obviously some would rather have more money, it takes all kinds, same as elsewhere.
Yes I knew that, but we're talking about now not the 80s or 90s. Foxconn does not employ cheap labor from the urban areas. It looks for the cheapest labor and young too because they can work hard, and treats them like beasts of burden.

Quote:
3.)And that despicable Foxconn, working overtime right now to get rush orders out so that their customers have products before the Christmas rush. Shame on them. I guess their management should be stoned for ordering some overtime during the most busy times of the year? Well, dumb as I am, I don't see what else they could do and what is so wrong with that. Perhaps you could enlighten us?
They could incorporate ethical standards into their management of overtime and working conditions. They could try to raise the quality of life from that of a Thai elephant farm.

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4.)And I have more news for you. No company likes to work overtime. You have to pay 50 to 100% extra, that is extremely expensive. So companies avoid it like the plague and only do it when it is absolutely necessary.
I'm sorry what are you on about? Foxconn would keep them working forever if it could increase production for Apple. As long as the workers are willing lured by the promise of overtime they'll do it.

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5.)Is Foxconn cheaper than other suppliers? Yes, probably. Do they pay less? Definitely no. They wouldn't find any workers, especially good ones, if they did. They have economies of scale (they will pay less for supplies, machinery, they will be more efficient), they have a well thought out workflow, they have a great system of training and managing. Workers see opportunities for advancement and work hard to try to get ahead. I know that sounds sinister to you. Workers working for their own benefit, mind-boggling, isn't it?
I'm sorry you are completely misinformed. Foxconn aggressively made use of China’s first export-processing “free trade” zone in Shenzhen, where it constructed two massive factory/dormitory complexes with half a million workers, 99% of whom were “internal migrants” from other provinces. They worked and lived under such alienating and repressive conditions that in 2010 a score of Foxconn workers despairingly hurled themselves off the roofs of their high-rise dormitories in Shenzhen, briefly becoming a cause célèbre in the Chinese and international press. Foxconn installed nets around the dormitories and hired psychiatric social workers, but did not modify the excessively long hours of mind-numbing repetitive labor, or ease up on its humiliating and militarized disciplinary regime.

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6.)"The only game in town to make some money". Boy, I never laughed so hard. You will find tens of thousands of factories within an 2-3 hours drive from each other. You just have to walk to the factory gate next door and they will take you. The vast majority of factories are desperately looking for workers.
Qualified... workers that is.

Here are some more facts about foxconn...

About 1% of the cost of your iPhone, iPad or other advanced electronic device goes to pay the wages of the Chinese workers who assemble them, while another 1% goes to Foxconn executives and shareholders.

1.2 million young Chinese workers assemble over 50% of all the electronics products consumed over the globe. Armies of young men and women perform monotonous repetitive assembly work under quasi-military discipline for at least 60 hours a week for minimal pay and virtually no social benefits.

In 2010 and 2011 nearly 100,000 “student interns” between 16 and 18 years old supplied to Foxconn by vocational schools were required to work for Foxconn regardless of their major field of study. They were assigned to work at various mind-numbing repetitive tasks by computer (to break up groups of schoolmates). Although they receive a minimum wage (and no benefits at all since they are not covered by labor law), the student interns actually paid for the privilege of being exploited by paying school tuition and exorbitant placement fees.

Worker resistance at Foxconn is sporadic and usually individual. Many workers quit in the middle of the month (and hence receive no pay at all for hours worked). Occasionally a spontaneously organized slowdown may cause the removal of a particularly abusive line supervisor. At the beginning of 2012, in a grisly echo of the tragic suicides of 2010, one group of 200 Foxconn workers gathered on a roof in Wuhan to threaten mass suicide. They won a few concessions, but 45 of them were fired as a consequence.

The audit confirms SACOM’s reports that workers work at least 60 hours a week, more at peak periods, and often do not receive even one day off a week. Time spent at work meetings or being lectured while standing at the work station is not compensated. Overtime is compensated only in 30 minute increments – hence a worker who works 29 minutes overtime is not compensated at all, and one who works 59 minutes is paid only for thirty.

This info is from Unions.org

Well it sounds pretty terrible Hans... I think you're on the wrong side here buddy.
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:00 PM   #108
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For someone preaching against the evils of gadgets (especially later in the thread), you do so in a curious place - on a forum devoted to Mobile Reading (using electronic gadgets)... and you do support the "hate" culture rather than reasoned discussion if you don't see the problem with "fanboi" and also criticise only Apple for the use of various Chinese companies as if they are the only company having their goods manufactured in China... still mustn't let facts get in the way of anti-capitalist rhetoric, better to go for state control for the people... it worked really well for the USSR... so well that China is now heavily Capitalist as well...
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Originally Posted by TheOmegaZoid View Post
I'm against the lusting after and worship of objects at the expense of human values and morality. Yes.

I'm most certainly against globalization and the cruel realities it creates for people. Yes.

Its easy for the victorious in this economic world we live in, to claim that their system is the most ideal above all others, and claim superiority to all past history. Certainly.

Firstly, it would be nice if you actually responded to what I'm saying rather than a few bits that fit the agenda you're working to...

Secondly, you've moved a lot of this discussion away from the title subject and would be far better preaching in the political thread...

Thirdly, who claimed that any system was "the most ideal above all others" in the thread... and who the hell was talking victorious especially in the current economic climate...

Your overall reactions and tone actually remind me of the tone of the armies of paid pro-Chinese bloggers who are instructed to attack any dissent... it doesn't work so well on a lightly moderated free site...

Edit: Responding to another of your posts whilst I was writing mine: Union.org??? A neutral and unbiased source???

Last edited by elcreative; 09-17-2012 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:01 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by HansTWN View Post
The UN gave the Senkakus/DiaoYuTai to Japan after WW2. And the way China was being treated in the 19th century is the way they treat their neighbors now (Taiwan, Tibet, Mongolia, Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia). China is the last great colonial power.
China is a colonial power? Seriously what on earth are you talking about? GO READ some history bud!

Ah yes the UN 'gave' them to Japan....
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:05 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by elcreative View Post

Firstly, it would be nice if you actually responded to what I'm saying rather than a few bits that fit the agenda you're working to...

Secondly, you've moved a lot of this discussion away from the title subject and would be far better preaching in the political thread...

Thirdly, who claimed that any system was "the most ideal above all others" in the thread... and who the hell was talking victorious especially in the current economic climate...

Your overall reactions and tone actually remind me of the tone of the armies of paid pro-Chinese bloggers who are instructed to attack any dissent... it doesn't work so well on a lightly moderated free site...
I certainly haven't shifted the topic! I'm just responding to all these attacks. I'll respond to what you say, if you say something worth responding to.

The thing I'm interested in on this thread is the costs of an iPhone.
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:05 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by TheOmegaZoid View Post
China is a colonial power? Seriously what on earth are you talking about? GO READ some history bud!

Ah yes the UN 'gave' them to Japan....
TIBET

I do suggest that a mod shifts this to the political thread...
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:08 PM   #112
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I certainly haven't shifted the topic! I'm just responding to all these attacks. I'll respond to what you say, if you say something worth responding to.

The thing I'm interested in on this thread is the costs of an iPhone.
And you still ignore the rest of a post because "it isn't worth responding to," yet another typical obfuscation technique designed to promote your personal agandas at the expense of the discussion...
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:22 PM   #113
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TIBET

I do suggest that a mod shifts this to the political thread...
Do you know the definition of colonialism I wonder?

Tibet is certainly not a colony of China, its part of China. China has no colonies. And I'm not a defender of China, its just the level of misinformation about this country is staggeringly high.

Anyway lets get back to iPhones!
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Old 09-17-2012, 11:25 PM   #114
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How bizarre... I a devout christian, actually find myself backed into a corner and having to stick up for China of all places, from a pack of Apple smurfbots!
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:21 AM   #115
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trying to get another thread closed
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:30 AM   #116
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trying to get another thread closed
You've repeated that now several times sot that seems to be your agenda, I most certainly don't want it closed. I'm trying to get people to think and consider past the colors on their flashy phones!
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:45 AM   #117
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You've repeated that now several times sot that seems to be your agenda, I most certainly don't want it closed. I'm trying to get people to think and consider past the colors on their flashy phones!
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How bizarre... I a devout christian, actually find myself backed into a corner and having to stick up for China of all places, from a pack of Apple smurfbots!
Yep, you are doing a fine job.

The mods should close this thread.
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:50 AM   #118
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Yep, you are doing a fine job.

The mods should close this thread.
No way! Lets get back to the topic of iPhones. And Foxconn's ethical abuses are a crucial part of that discussion. Just think, if I hadn't entered this thread, you'd still all be puttering about 10$ for the screen, 5$ for the speaker... ect.

Now we've really got somewhere. And we're getting to the heart of what the costs are.

You know mods close down threads all too easily these days without remembering what a thread is supposed to be. Its like a chain of thought. Thought evolve and change, and thats whats really interesting, not exact agreements between everyone. So let the thread twist and turn and dance where it will....
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Old 09-18-2012, 12:57 AM   #119
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