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Old 09-04-2012, 08:35 AM   #16
fjtorres
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Just this once I'm going to reverse my usual stance, and say that the standard wasn't viable to begin with. The vendors are simply trying to get something usable out of it.
That would be my guess, too.
That is how we got HTML out of SGML.
(But the followers of the Holy Church of ePub transcendant will likely disagree with us.)

The fact that Adobe has nothing in the way of a shipping epub3 solution (going on two years, no?) suggests that a full implementation of that spec is really, really hard. But vendors need to sell *something* now. Hence the enduring presence of epub2 and the emergence of iBook and KF8 and the various proprietary fixed-layout formats.
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:45 PM   #17
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It would be IMHO as a consumer, completely sufficient would they repeat their sanity roll,
understand that a book isn't an interactive jukebox, kick out all the stuff belonging to the latter implement things which are important for books and after! having done this well and rock solid go and play with new ideas for next generation devices which might then be available.
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Old 09-04-2012, 05:06 PM   #18
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It would be IMHO as a consumer, completely sufficient would they repeat their sanity roll,
understand that a book isn't an interactive jukebox, kick out all the stuff belonging to the latter implement things which are important for books and after! having done this well and rock solid go and play with new ideas for next generation devices which might then be available.
A good start.
A better one would be to ditch all the fixed layout stuff along with the interactivity into a separate format for textbooks and academic papers.

That way, people who actually *need* those features in their documents can get a (pricier) reader that can do them (Probably a PC with a new reading app.) instead of trying to squeeze them out of a $99 gadget.

Trying to create a super format requires a super reader at a time when the bulk of the ebook money is still in narrative text. There is no economic incentive for the walled-garden vendors to take on the expense and complexity of the full (or even near-full) spec. No yet.

So far, trying to use the consumer side of the industry to ramp up the academic side is not working; it didn't work when Amazon did the DX, and it hasn't worked for the other high-feature readers like Plastic Logic, Ectaco, etc. For now the market seems to prefer its readers small and cheap and its ebooks simple and cheaper still.
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Old 09-04-2012, 05:19 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by fjtorres View Post
A good start.
A better one would be to ditch all the fixed layout stuff along with the interactivity into a separate format for textbooks and academic papers.

That way, people who actually *need* those features in their documents can get a (pricier) reader that can do them (Probably a PC with a new reading app.) instead of trying to squeeze them out of a $99 gadget.

Trying to create a super format requires a super reader at a time when the bulk of the ebook money is still in narrative text. There is no economic incentive for the walled-garden vendors to take on the expense and complexity of the full (or even near-full) spec. No yet.

So far, trying to use the consumer side of the industry to ramp up the academic side is not working; it didn't work when Amazon did the DX, and it hasn't worked for the other high-feature readers like Plastic Logic, Ectaco, etc. For now the market seems to prefer its readers small and cheap and its ebooks simple and cheaper still.
Epub 3 has been two years in the making and is (IMO) too large a leap from Epub 2. In the article:
Quote:
Apple has done what they wanted/needed to do to achieve the functionality they want for iBooks and iBooks Author on the iPad. Much of what Kobo has done with fixed layout is based on iBooks, but they are not Apple so they cannot create the same files. B&N has their own approach to fixed layout and supports different things. This is why Kaplansky said there will never be “one EPUB file to rule them all.” If you are creating fixed-layout EPUBs, you will probably need to create different files for each retailer.
Is that what Epub not2/not3 is destined to become...a fragmented "standard" specific to each major vendor?
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:00 PM   #20
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A better one would be to ditch all the fixed layout stuff along with the interactivity into a separate format for textbooks and academic papers.
But when Apple and Amazon introduce their own formats for doing that, they get lambasted for ignoring the standard.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:11 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by fjtorres View Post
Trying to create a super format requires a super reader at a time when the bulk of the ebook money is still in narrative text. There is no economic incentive for the walled-garden vendors to take on the expense and complexity of the full (or even near-full) spec. No yet.
They're doing like teachers have to do these days, and catering to the "won't read" set. It isn't good enough to have hyperlinked and cross-referenceable text, but they also have to have someone read it, play a video, and watch an animation.

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But when Apple and Amazon introduce their own formats for doing that, they get lambasted for ignoring the standard.
They're only doing what's right for Apple and Amazon, when faced with an unworkable standard. I don't really blame them. ePub3 was too ambitious and doesn't look like it ever faced a reality check.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:29 PM   #22
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They're only doing what's right for Apple and Amazon, when faced with an unworkable standard.
I disagree somewhat. Apple and Amazon are doing what they are doing not because of problems with ePub. They are doing what they are doing because they want 100% control. If they went with ePub, they would have to deal with Adobe and that wouldn't work for Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos. They don't care about the consumer as much as they do keeping control.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:38 PM   #23
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They're only doing what's right for Apple and Amazon, when faced with an unworkable standard. I don't really blame them. ePub3 was too ambitious and doesn't look like it ever faced a reality check.
Uh-huh.
Because as retailers, they *know* what is selling and what isn't.
If you look at the parts of epub3 they implement and what they ignore it becomes clear they see no value in supporting those features at this time.

If those features ever become useful in making them money, then they'll support them.

If epub3 fails (it hasn't, yet) it would hardly be the first "universal" committee standard to be thoroughly ignored by the industry it is meant to support.

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Old 09-05-2012, 12:20 AM   #24
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If epub3 fails (it hasn't, yet) it would hardly be the first "universal" committee standard to be thoroughly ignored by the industry it is meant to support.
Anybody remember the ISO seven level layer networking 'standard'?

Heck, I'd be happy if somebody implemented all of epub 2!

Last edited by pholy; 09-05-2012 at 12:22 AM. Reason: Jeez, even I can't remember what it was called!
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:31 AM   #25
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I disagree somewhat. Apple and Amazon are doing what they are doing not because of problems with ePub. They are doing what they are doing because they want 100% control. If they went with ePub, they would have to deal with Adobe and that wouldn't work for Steve Jobs or Jeff Bezos. They don't care about the consumer as much as they do keeping control.
As a consumer, a world where I don't have to deal with Adobe's POS software is a better world.

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Old 09-05-2012, 08:04 AM   #26
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Anybody remember the ISO seven level layer networking 'standard'?

Heck, I'd be happy if somebody implemented all of epub 2!
OSI/GOSIP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Sy...nterconnection

Quote:
The OSI protocol suite that was specified as part of the project was considered by many, such as computer scientist Andrew S. Tanenbaum, to be too complicated and inefficient, and to a large extent unimplementable.[2] Taking the "forklift upgrade" approach to networking, it specified eliminating all existing protocols and replacing them with new ones at all layers of the stack. This made implementation difficult, and was resisted by many vendors and users with significant investments in other network technologies. In addition, the protocols included so many optional features that many vendor's implementations were not interoperable.
Everybody who seeks to promote/define committee "standards" should be forced to attend at least four hours of OSI history class. When ivory tower "standards" meet the real world, the real world usually yawns. And keeps on doing what makes practical and economic sense.

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Old 09-05-2012, 08:22 AM   #27
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As a consumer, a world where I don't have to deal with Adobe's POS software is a better world.
Well, eventually they'll get something out the door...
...if READIUM's potluck effort doesn't fizzle out...
http://readium.org/
http://readium.org/readium-project-goals

Announced to some fanfare in Feb 2012, it has since gone quiet. Presumably the coders are chugging away merrily...

Other than that, I haven't seen much publicly that even hints at when Adobe might be supporting epub3 in their Reader apps. (Kinda limits what Sony and the other generic Adobe clients can offer themselves.)

Anybody seen anything?
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:47 AM   #28
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As a consumer, a world where I don't have to deal with Adobe's POS software is a better world.
ADE is not as bad as you think. Besides,would it not nice to be able to buy an eBook from any store selling eBooks and you can use it on your device without having to convert?
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Old 09-05-2012, 12:35 PM   #29
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ADE is not as bad as you think. Besides,would it not nice to be able to buy an eBook from any store selling eBooks and you can use it on your device without having to convert?
The few books i bought without DRm, and thus ddd not need ade to download, it was really nice. I long for the day the publishers stop that drm nonsence.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:59 PM   #30
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ADE is not as bad as you think. Besides,would it not nice to be able to buy an eBook from any store selling eBooks and you can use it on your device without having to convert?
So I could buy books from any store ... except Amazon, Apple and B&N (for those devices which still don't use the latest SDK). What percentage of the market does that leave me with? That doesn't seem like a great deal.
And in return I have to pay an Adobe tax, for a company that contribute nothing except DRM, which everybody hates?
(Besides, I read on a tablet, so I already can read books from any store I want)
You may hate Amazon with a white hot passion, but they provide the best user experience.
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