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Old 08-28-2012, 10:23 PM   #31
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Time for a little "on topic" discussion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by shidunce View Post
... its really unhealthy to have wireless router in your apartment. Same to DECT phones.
Umm... Really? "Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence" -- Carl Sagan. Where is your "extraordinary evidence" (not the "we don't know" kind)?

And here is Carl Sagan's acclaimed original source (a very interesting read on pseudo-skepticism):
http://www.anomalist.com/commentaries/pseudo.html
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Originally Posted by shidunce View Post
geekmaster,
Thank you for your reply)
I work for money, measuring levels of radiation in work places and private places )
Okay, thanks for this disclaimer. This shows that you have an incentive to show controversial information with a view biased in favor of your source of revenue. We can use that to help determine the veracity and balance of your claims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shidunce View Post
First of all I want to say that I divide radiation from all applications into three big categories:
1) Low frequency Magnetic field (from 1 to 100 000 hz) power lines, wiring inside houses, motors. Measured in mili Gauss or nano Tesla.
2) Low frequency Electric field (dirty electricity) - wiring inside houses, many many other applications (from 1 to 500 000 hz) Measured in Volts per meter.
3) High frequency radiation that comes from All wireless applications, cellphones, radars, radio, etc.
You can receive EM energy with an electric field dipole antenna, or with a magnetic field loop antenna. They each have strengths and weaknesses depending on your application. Electric antennas are preferrable for high frequencies and magnetic antennas are preferrable for lower frequencies, due to the size and mass of an antenna relative to the wavelength of the target frequency (frequency is the inverse of wavelength). Whichever antenna is smaller/lighter/cheaper is generally preferred for most applications for receivers, but transmitters usually use electric antennas. You include "radio" as "high frequency", but in reality radio includes ELF and light (both of which are just different radio frequencies). All frequencies of electromagnetic radiation contain an electric component and a magnetic component (as indicated by its name). Both fields must be considered INDEPENDENT from the measured frequency. This makes your claims above not quite accurate and somewhat incomplete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shidunce View Post
1,2 kinds vanish fast with distance, but third kind is not vanishing. Its so called filling radiation - it reflects many times from walls, metals, etc..
ALL kinds of EM radiation (including visible light, infrared, heat, and broadcast radio) expand in a spherical wavefront from each distributed point source of the radiator (transmitter antenna). Taking a single point source into account, an emitted wavefront will expand at the speed of light (adjusted by the propagation velocity of the carrying medium) in a perfect sphere, with the transmitted power distributed evenly over the surface of the sphere. Because the surface area of a sphere is proportional to the square of the diameter, the power per square meter also diminishes at the square of the distance. When the radio wave has travelled so it is 100 times as far away, its strength is then spread over a surface area that is 10,000 times larger, and hence the Watts/sq-m has decreased by a factor of 10,000. This is irrefutable pure physics and mathematics. Walls completely absorb some radio wavelengths, and are completely transparent to other wavelengths. They only reflect radio waves (as claimed) if they are covered with a metallic surface such as aluminum paint (but radio waves can bounce off other metallic objects in the room). The claims made above are clearly false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shidunce View Post
The only thing that can catch it in modern cities is human body. OK, some plants, water too
Most modern cities contain radio and TV antennas, and satellite dishes and numerous other antennas. They can certainly "catch" radio waves. Depending on frequency, different (non-metalic) materials either pass or absorb EM energy. It just so happens that a water molecule has a resonant frequency of about 2.4GHz, which is WHY it absorbs/blocks wifi signals (and why it works in microwave ovens). Super high frequencies (like radar) behave much like visible light and are blocked by most things that block light. ELF passes easily through water/stone/earth, which is why it is often used for submarine and subterranean communications. High frequencies (like AM radio) easily pass through buildings and trees (which can block FM in some cases, and block UHF TV signals even more).

If you study antenna design like I did, you can shape radio waves by using a reflector element that is slightly longer than the wavelength, and direct (focus) radio waves with a director element that is slightly shorter than the wavelength. You can see that principle in action on old-fashioned TV antennas. You can also reflect and focus radio waves with a parabolic reflector. In the case of microwaves, you can even focus them with a lens that is made of paraffin instead of glass, or with a zone-plate antenna that uses the same diffraction properties as light, but at much longer wavelengths.

The reason I am providing this information here is to show that your claims are stated as facts, but they are in conflict with the real facts such as those that I provided. You are free to continue to believe your "facts" if you wish (as they are part of a belief system common to pseudoscience), or you can research the real facts that I have provided by googling some of the keywords.

Regarding RF propagation, I recommend reading the ARRL Antenna Design books. There is plenty of wifi antenna design on the net too.

Of particular note is that these antennas "catches" radio waves, and its ingredients do not contain humans, plants, or water (contrary to a claim made above by the OP). But water could be used as an RF shield (in fact, rain can reduce microwave reception because of that fact).[/COLOR]

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Old 08-28-2012, 10:26 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Here is a nice chart explaining radiation doses.

Actual radiation, as opposed to buckets of electromagnetic spectrum. ...
I love xkcd.

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Old 08-28-2012, 10:37 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunspark View Post
Here is information about wifi:
...
That perfectly summarizes the first post of this thread. Welcome to the "2600 club"!

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Old 08-28-2012, 10:59 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geekmaster View Post
I claim infringement of my IP here. In post #6 I said "life is a terminal disease", and your statement is clearly a derivative of mine. (Just kidding).
Close enough. My heirs will be engaging with yours after my passing. Hopefully 40 or more years hence.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:15 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by geekmaster View Post
The ELF electric field in the speaker or earbud voicecoils will probably do more damage than the wireless (especially when wireless is turned off), which is extremely unlikely.
Whew. Had me a little worried there for a minute. Lol (Not that I'd give it up, but I don't want them to tell me to. )

Quote:
Brain tumors can be caused by a lot of things more dangerous than cellphones and wifi (which probably cause more car accidents than brain tumors). Genetics has a lot to do with it, as well as inadequate diet and exercise (and not enough sex). Taking vitamin supplements can help, but a well-balanced wholesome organic diet (with all the trace elements missing from chemically "fertilized" depeted soil) is better. And don't forget the sex (if you are an adult). http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationshi...enefits-of-sex
Can't be lack of sex. I do that several times a day, out on the beach, when we're finished having BBQ & sniffing glue.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:21 PM   #36
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Whew. Had me a little worried there for a minute. Lol (Not that I'd give it up, but I don't want them to tell me to. )

Can't be lack of sex. I do that several times a day, out on the beach, when we're finished having BBQ & sniffing glue.
Well there you go and now we know. Tumors can be caused by carcinogens from meat grilled on the BBQ, and from the sniffing of the glue.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:24 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by shidunce View Post
Hello guys.

Here is my humble donation for your community, so I will not feel like reading here for free )
Just want to welcome you to mobileread, shidunce. We may not always agree, and ragging does occur, but don't let it shy you from joining in on all the fun & interesting stuff here. :cheers:
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:27 PM   #38
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Well there you go and now we know. Tumors can be caused by carcinogens from meat grilled on the BBQ, and from the sniffing of the glue.
No way...

Next thing I know, you'll be telling me I get radiation at the beach. Yeesh.

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Old 08-28-2012, 11:37 PM   #39
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No way...

Next thing I know, you'll be telling me I get radiation at the beach. Yeesh.

Actually, free radicals in your food probably do more damage than moderate ultraviolet radiation exposure, and the occasional ionizing gamma radiation from the sun that modifies your DNA just helps to promote evolution.

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Old 08-28-2012, 11:58 PM   #40
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Actually, free radicals in your food probably do more damage than moderate ultraviolet radiation exposure, and the occasional ionizing gamma radiation from the sun that modifies your DNA just helps to promote evolution.
:thumbup:

Funny that they're called free radicals, because I tend to think the answer to healthy living is moderation in (almost) everything... enjoy life as best you can and not get upright about things.
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:23 AM   #41
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Just want to welcome you to mobileread, shidunce. We may not always agree, and ragging does occur, but don't let it shy you from joining in on all the fun & interesting stuff here. :cheers:
Agreed!

@shidunce: Welcome aboard!

Please make a contribution that contains more factual evidence to balance any extraordinary or controversial claims, and especially something that adds value and usefulness to kindle ebook readers. Try to avoid making your posts look like you are advertising your professional services while you are at it. But this thread has certainly been fun for some of us. Thanks.

I did study EMF effects on health in the past, which is why I responded in so much detail in this thread, based on my personal research some time ago in this field. If you have more questions, or if you can provide definitive evidence to support your claims, please feel free to respond.

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Old 08-29-2012, 01:08 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shidunce View Post
... Take a look on this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7E36zGHxRw
Its interesting.

Tumors is something that happens because of real abuse of cellphones.
But we should look on wider picture that shows that many many people are suffering (a little), and even don't know about it. ...
That claim is unsubstantiated.

Regarding that youtube video link, blood roulleaux (protein linkage) is claimed from the personal experience of the video narrator to be caused by computer and cellphone exposure, but according to medical literature (http://biomedx.com/microscopes/training/LB1.html), it is caused by "Excess dietary protein, poor assimilation. Eating too much animal protein. Blood too toxic (altered blood pH) from stress, coffee, cigarettes, meat, etc. Dehydration, not drinking enough water (which by the way, is one of the top undiagnosed causes of many ailments)."

Unless those medically recognized causative factors are eliminated by proper scientifically-proven double-blind experiments, the narrator's methodology is not scientifically valid. Did the narrator smoke before this experiment? What did she eat? How long since she had fluid intake, and how much? Also, how were the microscope slides cleaned and sterilized? Could their handling have affected the observed results? These are important questions that must be answered before we can validate her claims or draw any useful conclusions from her limited observations.

She needs to repeat the experiment under the same conditions, with and without the low-level non-ionizing radiation exposure, and again varying her diet, to make any conclusions from self-administered personal blood tests. A larger statistical sample taken at different times of day, over a longer time period of many days, could actually be useful, rather than assuming that computers and cellphones (which are NOT medically recognized as roulleaux causes) have anything at all to do with her blood condition (other than that it is a general sign of disease) at that particular time.

Something that I found particularly interesting at the above biomedx.com link was this: "Also keep in mind that the wrong diet for one's blood type (A, O, B, AB) can agglutinate the blood. Certain food lectins are incompatible with certain blood types." Now that is something that I want to personally research when I get some more time.

Diet and exercise are a lot more important for health than wifi exposure (especially for adults). Even most medically recognized ELF exposure health problems (such as leukemia) are of concern only to growing children. Even electric blankets are not recommended for use by growing children for that very reason. But poor diet can cause a lot more long-term problems for both children and adults. And we certainly need a LOT more exercise (especially in the USA). Video games and text messaging only exercise our thumbs. And we need a LOT less CORN byproducts in our diets.

But we need MORE wireless connectivity (and faster too), not less (IMHO). And more bacon!

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Old 08-29-2012, 01:53 AM   #43
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The most recent study by the World Heath Organization came to this conclusion:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/0...-brain-tumors/
Quote:
The final paper states that overall there is no link between cellphone use and brain tumors. However, the investigators report that study participants with the highest level of cellphone use had a 40 percent higher risk for a type of brain tumor called a glioma. That risk, though, is discounted because of potential “biases and errors” that “prevent a causal interpretation,” the investigators wrote.
It should be noted that since that study, "CREAL is co-ordinating a new project, MobiKids, funded by the European Union, to investigate the risk of brain tumours from mobile phone use in childhood and adolescence." But no conclusive evidence linking health problems to cellphones has yet been reached regarding that study, so no such valid claims can be made in this thread.
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:09 AM   #44
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http://www.cancer.org/Cancer/CancerC...ellular-phones
Quote:
Several dozen studies have looked at possible links between cell phone use and tumors. Most of these studies have focused on brain tumors. Many of these have been case-control studies, in which patients with brain tumors (cases) were compared to people free of brain tumors (controls), in terms of their past cell phone use.

In general, these studies have yielded similar results:

In most studies patients with brain tumors do not report more cell phone use overall than the controls. This finding is true when all brain tumors are considered as a group, or when specific types of tumors are considered.

Most studies do not show a "dose-response relationship," which would be a tendency for the risk of brain tumors to be higher with increasing cell phone use. This would be expected if cell phone use caused brain tumors.

Most studies do not show that brain tumors occur more often on the side of the head where people hold their cell phones. This might also be expected if cell phone use caused brain tumors.

A few studies have found a possible link. For example, several studies published by the same research group in Sweden have reported an increased risk of tumors on the side of the head where the cell phone was held, particularly with 10 or more years of use. It is hard to know what to make of these findings because studies by other researchers have not had the same results, and there is no overall increase in brain tumors in Sweden during the years that correspond to these reports.
And more:
Quote:
According to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), which regulates the safety of radiation-emitting devices such as cell phones in the United States: "The majority of studies published have failed to show an association between exposure to radiofrequency from a cell phone and health problems."

According to the Federal Communications Commission (FCC): "There is no scientific evidence that proves that wireless phone usage can lead to cancer or a variety of other problems, including headaches, dizziness or memory loss. However, organizations in the United States and overseas are sponsoring research and investigating claims of possible health effects related to the use of wireless telephones."

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC): "Some… studies have suggested the possibility that long-term, high cell phone use may be linked to certain types of brain cancer. These studies do not establish this link definitively. Scientists will need to conduct more studies to learn more about this possible risk."

According to the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS), which is currently conducting studies of the possible health effects of cell phones: "The weight of the current scientific evidence has not conclusively linked cell phones with any adverse health problems, but more research is needed."

According to the National Cancer Institute (NCI): "Studies thus far have not shown a consistent link between cell phone use and cancers of the brain, nerves, or other tissues of the head or neck. More research is needed because cell phone technology and how people use cell phones have been changing rapidly."
Of course, cellphone usage has been increasing, and the total time spent using cellphones has also been increasing, and children have been using cellphones much more often in recent years, so further studies are needed to take these new situations into account (especially for children), but no adverse conclusions about health risks can be reached at this time.

There is certainly plenty of room for fear of the unknown (and FUD), but no reason to panic or to get oneself all stressed out over this long-term ongoing non-issue. Even the (missing) correlation maps from the "home city" in Israel are just coincidental non-evidence and certainly not scientific proof, however popular they may have been (before they were removed from the website). There could be a correlation of ionizing radiation sources (or other potential health hazards) at locations that also coincide with those maps. Anecdotal correlation is not evidence. It just tells you where you need to study with REAL scientific experimental studies (unlike those STATISTICAL studies shown above). Of course, real studies that affect life and death of human test subjects are unlikely to happen any time soon, so this will help to keep uninformed and irrational fear alive for a long time to come, especially when there are those who profit from those fears.

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Old 08-29-2012, 03:54 AM   #45
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Device: kindle 4
geekmaster,

Well, I made a video to show it to people who probably will find it interesting.
I can not do more for your community by now.

About "facts", as I say ,that I provided.
Blood is affected hard by many factors and electromagnetic radiation is one of them. Mine blood is the same as Magda's. I got microscope, but not camera yet to film it and make video response to this nice vid I gave you here. I eat mostly fish (of all animal's products) and red meat very rarely and I can reach really healthy blood in the morning.

Radio waves are not high frequencies, but I put it in this kind as something that can be found very far from the source and its power flow can be significant.

I am glad you have your solid opinion and position. I wish everybody could have such one. I am glad also that you have no problem with Wi-Fi, DECT, etc. And I hope you will never have such problem.

I am not going to make discussion here. Maybe because I have no arguments to show you or maybe because I have no time to waste. You (and everybody) can choose the reason.
I am sure, that in more 20-40 years (and maybe earlier) all wireless technology will be out of law. Its just a matter of time. And then all the talks will be done without me and you will be just notified: "Tadammm, from now wireless is something not legal!"

By the way I have many EE engineers friends who work in RF and all of them denying the danger of wireless. I suppose just because it touches them personally )

I expect that this thread will be read by many people. This object of our talk here must be broadcasted.

Thank you all for participation.
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