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View Poll Results: Should 'anything go'?
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:30 PM   #91
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The gist of this thread as been that print/tv does not influence people. The advertising industry is proof that they do influence people.
No, that's not been the gist of the thread. The gist of it is that if your going to claim that certain things have certain effects, there needs to be evidence for that claim. There's plenty of evidence for the effect advertising has, but that doesn't mean that other effects must be real.
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:42 PM   #92
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The gist of this thread as been that print/tv does not influence people. The advertising industry is proof that they do influence people. Whether it is negative (i.e. girls going anorexic, see the studies out of Japan that force them to change advertising laws) or positive (saving money on car insurance), they do influence the population in general.

If advertisements effect the general population, why would nothing else influence the general population.
Of course advertising influences behavior. But there's a far cry between advertisement and a book/tv show that encourages you to rape someone. Most people have enough self-control and morals to know what they should and should not do.

Do not confuse the advertising of a harmless product with the depiction of dangerous and immoral behavior.

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Old 08-16-2012, 08:56 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by VydorScope View Post
The gist of this thread as been that print/tv does not influence people. The advertising industry is proof that they do influence people. [...]
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Originally Posted by QuantumIguana View Post
No, that's not been the gist of the thread. The gist of it is that if your going to claim that certain things have certain effects, there needs to be evidence for that claim. There's plenty of evidence for the effect advertising has, but that doesn't mean that other effects must be real.
And, perhaps more importantly, what influences?

Erotica and horror, by the very way they are presented, are often more in nature of cartoons - to a large extent they are very obviously not real, and the behaviour often shown as specifically anomalous. What message may be taken from such media is not necessarily obvious. It may be that worse messages come from more general media, where the "right" way to act and present yourself is shown (often) without deliberate forethought; it's just "the way it is". Such influences are often subliminal and may be quite effective.
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:32 PM   #94
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No, that's not been the gist of the thread. The gist of it is that if your going to claim that certain things have certain effects, there needs to be evidence for that claim. There's plenty of evidence for the effect advertising has, but that doesn't mean that other effects must be real.
What evidence would suffice? Any study presented would have a counterstudy. A review of the article over at Wikipedia on the social effects of pornography shows that while several studies support the conclusion that pornography has a negative sociological effect, other studies call that conclusion into question. It's a question that can't be conclusively answered in a single study, though the studies available can incline a person to believe that conclusion or to disbelieve that conclusion. I feel like the studies lend credence to the idea that the regular consumption of pornography has negative effects, but another person might not.

Today is it is very difficult for two people today to come to a mutually acceptable definition of "negative effect." For instance, a person who thinks of long-term exposure to pornography or erotica as extremely damaging may consider certain mindsets to be negative, whereas a person who regularly views/reads erotica or pornography may not consider those mindsets to be so negative. In this case, it would not be possible for people to agree on the question as to whether or not pornography has a negative effect on those who regularly consume it.

The question centers, after all, on whether people who frequently consume erotic/pornographic content continue to think of sex the same way as people who don't. I believe they do not continue to think the same way--what they consume affects them, and that after viewing pornography on a regular basis, they think about sex differently than before. If I'm right, then those people would likely reject my claims--they don't think that their thoughts on sex have changed or been affected in any negative way. They're just fine with the effects.

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Old 08-17-2012, 01:01 AM   #95
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What evidence would suffice? Any study presented would have a counterstudy. [...]

The question centers, after all, on whether people who frequently consume erotic/pornographic content continue to think of sex the same way as people who don't. I believe they do not continue to think the same way--what they consume affects them, and that after viewing pornography on a regular basis, they think about sex differently than before. If I'm right, then those people would likely reject my claims--they don't think that their thoughts on sex have changed or been affected in any negative way. They're just fine with the effects.
The question of cause-and-effect also comes into it. Does reading certain material cause a person to behave a certain way, or do people that behave a certain way also have an affinity for particular content? How can you realistically separate cause-and-effect in these cases? Also, apropos this question and my previous post, it seems self-apparent that media often reflects societal mores rather than, necessarily, influencing them. There is a feedback loop going on here that makes the whole topic very murky.
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Old 08-17-2012, 11:39 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by djulian View Post
The question centers, after all, on whether people who frequently consume erotic/pornographic content continue to think of sex the same way as people who don't. I believe they do not continue to think the same way--what they consume affects them, and that after viewing pornography on a regular basis, they think about sex differently than before. If I'm right, then those people would likely reject my claims--they don't think that their thoughts on sex have changed or been affected in any negative way. They're just fine with the effects.
As you said, prolonged exposure to erotic/pornographic content may indeed change a person's outlook. That doesn't automatically mean it is changed for the worse.

It sounds as if many people in this thread are suggesting that most people cannot overcome negative or violent messages, or for that matter any messages, nor can they separate them from real life. I say this is not the case, and further, that most of those who embrace negative and violent messages, or incorporate them into real life, do so consciously and voluntarily; they are perfectly capable of avoiding that behavior, but they choose not to.

These people are proof of the fact that it is irrelevant to censor media at their level; such people will do bad things regardless of the media, the most media may do is offer them new ideas and encouragement for bad behavior they already intend to do.

Most rational people have perfectly functioning moral filters in place, originally created by exposure to family and friends and further refined by exposure to society. Those moral filters automatically kick in when thoughts of actions enter violent or anti-social territory, temper people's decisions and attitudes, and mediate actions to an acceptable-to-society level.

In the case of, say, pornography, those moral filters allow a person to be titillated by a racy or dangerous sex scene, but will prevent them from trying to act out the same scene in reality. It is clear to them the difference between erotic entertainment and real life.

Censorship is often applied at a societal level, when all parties could agree on a Universal Sameness that dictated what should be censored. But this was always a false premise; everyone isn't the same, because if they were, no one would have been creating censorable material in the first place.

Today, we much better recognize that there is no Universal Sameness, so there is no reason for censorship, except for protecting children whose moral filters have not yet been fully developed by family, friends and society. For those adults whose moral filters either haven't developed due to sickness or mental deficiency, or who actively ignore those filters, there are better tools than censorship to deal with them (including medical support and, in some cases, institutions).

For the rest of us, we can be left to make decisions and follow our internal moral filters on our own. Censorship is an outmoded tool in the 21st century.

(Wow... did I just say all that?)
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:02 PM   #97
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It sounds as if many people in this thread are suggesting that most people cannot overcome negative or violent messages, or for that matter any messages, nor can they separate them from real life. I say this is not the case, and further, that most of those who embrace negative and violent messages, or incorporate them into real life, do so consciously and voluntarily; they are perfectly capable of avoiding that behavior, but they choose not to.

Actually I intentionally used the word INFLUENCE, not BRAINWASH or MIND CONTROL.

The responsibility for any action still belongs to the person doing the action. My personal contention is..

1) Censorship is bad
2) What you read/watch influences you
3) Parents should be parents and take responsibility for their own kids
4) I desire that stores provide a way to filter/block stuff I do not want to see so that I can better find what I want.
5) In the end personal responsibility needs to be resurrected


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Old 08-17-2012, 09:15 PM   #98
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There are things I have read that I wish I could scrub totally from my mind. There are also things I have actually witnessed that are every bit as bad.

Protecting children from accidental exposure to prurient literature is probably good, but pretending that bad things don't happen can leave them unprepared for life.

A 'normal healthy minded(by my definition only and feel free to differ)' child or adult will come across extreme depictions of violence and/or perversion and think gross and tend to avoid these things. If a child or adult is strongly attracted to these things (and some perfectly normal people are) it is not because they are available. That is IMO just the way they are. The availability of a type of literature does not make everyone want to read it. Lots of people have never read the bible and it is pretty available in most western countries.

Over-protection can be as bad as no protection at all, leaving a young adult open to all kinds of predators because they are unaware such things exist.

Leading by example and explaining why some things are just wrong is much more likely to have a positive effect than society/government censorship although it sometimes requires a small amount of personal effort.

Helen

Last edited by speakingtohe; 08-17-2012 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 08-18-2012, 02:07 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by VydorScope View Post
Actually I intentionally used the word INFLUENCE, not BRAINWASH or MIND CONTROL.

The responsibility for any action still belongs to the person doing the action. My personal contention is..

1) Censorship is bad
2) What you read/watch influences you
3) Parents should be parents and take responsibility for their own kids
4) I desire that stores provide a way to filter/block stuff I do not want to see so that I can better find what I want.
5) In the end personal responsibility needs to be resurrected


4) I desire that stores provide a way to filter/block stuff I do not want to see so that I can better find what I want.

You would be prepared to fill out a three or four page questionnaire at the entrance to every store? Then wait for the staff to re-arrange the stock? You have far more patience than I.
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Old 08-18-2012, 03:42 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by speakingtohe View Post
There are things I have read that I wish I could scrub totally from my mind. There are also things I have actually witnessed that are every bit as bad.

Protecting children from accidental exposure to prurient literature is probably good, but pretending that bad things don't happen can leave them unprepared for life.

A 'normal healthy minded(by my definition only and feel free to differ)' child or adult will come across extreme depictions of violence and/or perversion and think gross and tend to avoid these things. If a child or adult is strongly attracted to these things (and some perfectly normal people are) it is not because they are available. That is IMO just the way they are. The availability of a type of literature does not make everyone want to read it. Lots of people have never read the bible and it is pretty available in most western countries.

Over-protection can be as bad as no protection at all, leaving a young adult open to all kinds of predators because they are unaware such things exist.

Leading by example and explaining why some things are just wrong is much more likely to have a positive effect than society/government censorship although it sometimes requires a small amount of personal effort.

Helen
^ This
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Old 08-18-2012, 10:55 AM   #101
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I wish that Amazon would add a filter to the account settings. Each person would be able to block specific categories from showing up. This would apply to searches, browsing, and recommendations.
You can do it to a certain extent, but putting keywords with a minus sign into the search box, so putting '-romance' should get rid of those. However, it would be more difficult to get rid of historical fiction. It would be a lot easier if there was a series of tickboxes to include/exclude categories.
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Old 08-18-2012, 12:01 PM   #102
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4) I desire that stores provide a way to filter/block stuff I do not want to see so that I can better find what I want.

You would be prepared to fill out a three or four page questionnaire at the entrance to every store? Then wait for the staff to re-arrange the stock? You have far more patience than I.
Actually the way B&N currently works is fine. But I was thinking about Amazon and other online retailers when I typed that.

If stuff is tagged/categorized correctly (much much harder said then done) everyone can be happy. People look for <Stuff> can find it, people wanting to avoid <Stuff> can avoid it.

It is not unreasonable for me as a paying consumer to expect a store to try and make it easy for me to buy what I want. That is why they exist, to make a profit by selling me stuff. Note, I am not saying laws forcing them, let the market forces drive that.
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Old 08-18-2012, 04:31 PM   #103
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4) I desire that stores provide a way to filter/block stuff I do not want to see so that I can better find what I want.

You would be prepared to fill out a three or four page questionnaire at the entrance to every store? Then wait for the staff to re-arrange the stock? You have far more patience than I.
Y'know, I can just see an app company creating just such a standardized questionnaire that you'd load onto your smartphone; and as soon as you walk into a store or log into a site that can access that file, your preferences would automatically be downloaded, and the store would then steer you to what you want (probably with a few suggested side-trips to things they'd like you to buy).

Such a system would easily steer you away from all or selected types of adult material if so desired, and assuming the material was properly labeled.

Crowd-source ahoy!
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Old 08-18-2012, 04:56 PM   #104
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4) I desire that stores provide a way to filter/block stuff I do not want to see so that I can better find what I want.

You would be prepared to fill out a three or four page questionnaire at the entrance to every store? Then wait for the staff to re-arrange the stock? You have far more patience than I.
But stores do stock things this way. In a bookstore, romance is shelved separately from mystery, in the grocery store, flour is shelved separately from fruit, in electronics stores, TVs are shelves separately from radios.
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Old 08-19-2012, 07:37 AM   #105
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....
5) In the end personal responsibility needs to be resurrected


In all things.
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