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Old 08-12-2012, 08:01 AM   #46
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Surely we can all agree that there is (and should be) a distinction between "just didn't resonate with me," or "I thought it was awful," or "I wasn't part of the target audience" and "difficult?" That it felt like a chore to finish a book simply because you didn't care for it has no real bearing here ... IMHO. If it did, I would be forced to admit that the vast majority of YA fiction out there is far too "difficult" for me.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:03 AM   #47
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For those of use struggling our way through Ulysses, U hardily recommend the LibriVox audio version found at http://librivox.org/ulysses-by-james-joyce/.
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NOTE: Because of the nature of this project, there was a bending of usual LibriVox procedures: pub-like background noise was encouraged, as well as creative group readings; and no editing was required, so in places there may be some accidental variation from the original text.
Many of the readers, freed from the usual constraints of professional-style, or even polite, behaviors, took the project and its particular challenges to heart. At least one chapter is read by a group in a Dublin pub (they may or may not be strangers, but I'm pretty sure they abstained from the diet cola, and were enjoying a more indigenous beverage.)
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:06 PM   #48
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Surely we can all agree that there is (and should be) a distinction between "just didn't resonate with me," or "I thought it was awful," or "I wasn't part of the target audience" and "difficult?" That it felt like a chore to finish a book simply because you didn't care for it has no real bearing here ... IMHO. If it did, I would be forced to admit that the vast majority of YA fiction out there is far too "difficult" for me.
Quite so. It seems a lot of people equate "difficult" with "I thought it was boring", "I thought it was pointless" or "I didn't enjoy it for some other reason", when it ought to be fairly obvious that those are (generally) entirely different things. I guess it's closely related to the kind of ego-centric view you get in every other sphere of life - the music I don't like is crap, the clothes I don't wear look awful, and so on and so forth.
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:49 PM   #49
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Quite so. It seems a lot of people equate "difficult" with "I thought it was boring", "I thought it was pointless" or "I didn't enjoy it for some other reason", when it ought to be fairly obvious that those are (generally) entirely different things. I guess it's closely related to the kind of ego-centric view you get in every other sphere of life - the music I don't like is crap, the clothes I don't wear look awful, and so on and so forth.
Totally agree with this. I recently studied The Duchess of Malfi, by John Webster, and it was difficult. Every page required many minutes of research and cross-referencing, but it was one of my favourite reads of the year.
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Old 08-12-2012, 03:44 PM   #50
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Surely we can all agree that there is (and should be) a distinction between "just didn't resonate with me," or "I thought it was awful," or "I wasn't part of the target audience" and "difficult?" That it felt like a chore to finish a book simply because you didn't care for it has no real bearing here ... IMHO. If it did, I would be forced to admit that the vast majority of YA fiction out there is far too "difficult" for me.
My point was that in this instance I felt the author set out to make ´The inaccessible´ and succeeded.

Regardless of resonance IMHO it was intentionally tough to read, and the plot hung several lanterns on this fact throughout the work; the toughest of my meager career.

And Yes, if reading a book I personally didn´t enjoy qualified it as ¨Tough¨ there would indeed be a long list.

: )

Last edited by twobob; 08-12-2012 at 07:34 PM. Reason: Capitalised noun Properly
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Old 08-12-2012, 03:57 PM   #51
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... I guess it's closely related to the kind of ego-centric view you get in every other sphere of life - the music I don't like is crap, the clothes I don't wear look awful, and so on and so forth.
That type of thought is prevalent and counter-productive.
You can thank fashion for it. Not my bag however. Art is art, stuff is stuff, good and bad are vague and contextual terms for those generally unwilling to either Engage or Form My Own Opinion.

I was discussing ´Difficult´ not ´Rubbish´ and my F451 reference clearly missed the mark. ho hum. The intentionally negative and down-treading plot seemed relevant to the general ´Toughness´.

I´ll stick to griping about the book in private and destroy it systematically via borrowing it from every library in the world and not returning it!

Or perhaps just not read it again, Yeah. That´ll do : )

In conclusion: Defining Difficulty is slippery. Emotional, Technical, who is to say what makes a book tough? ´The Reader´ is the only answer I can come up with that makes any sense.

Last edited by twobob; 08-12-2012 at 04:07 PM. Reason: comma coma
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:56 PM   #52
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Wow...this thread has legs.

Seeing as how Joyce keeps getting pummeled ...


riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.


Overview -

The river Liffey runs its course, passing Adam and Eve's Chapel, swerving down to Dublin Bay, and returns by this circuitous path to Howth Castle (conceived as a return for the waters of the sea rise up as clouds that rain down upon the mountain where the Liffey began).


riverrun

Note the lowercase spelling. The River Liffey (name meaning "life") is conceived as female because the anglicized version of its name is taken as Anna Liffey. Joyce uses this name for one of the principal characters, Anna Livia. The book is heavy in mythology and water is used in myth as a death and resurrection motif to indicate a transformative change, a rebirth.


past Eve and Adam's

There is a chapel called Adam and Eve's which recalls Genesis and Eden. Joyce transposes the names, giving the female (the generative power) precedence.


from swerve of shore

We find later that the sibilant "sw" and "sh" are the serpent sound. So Adam, Eve, and the serpent give us the Fall from Grace and the Fall of Man. Also, snakes shuffle off their mortal coil and are renewed, so they're also used as death and resurrection motifs. They die to the past, to all they were, and are reborn.


to bend of bay

The river reaches its end in Dublin Bay and mixes with the waters of the larger sea.


brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.

At this point, people's eyes usually widen.

"Vicus" means path or street.

Another tense of "vicus" is "vico" and "vicus of recirculation" refers to Vico's Ricorso.

Giambattista Vico proposed a Philosophy of History wherein the history of a people advances through stages or corsi. These stages result from how people think about the world. It begins with a theological and then a heroic age created by a poetic, imaginative worldview, people explaining in metaphor what they can't otherwise comprehend. Then an age of men replacing gods and heroes arrives when reflective thought and reason predominate. All this comes to a crashing halt in the next stage, the ricorso, wherein conflict rises to the level of chaos and society collapses back to an earlier stage of development.

But from this ricorso, there is a rebirth as humanity rises up again. So Vico is describing a cyclical pattern to history, a perpetual rise and fall and rise again of peoples. Compare 3 paragraphs later, "Phall if you but will, rise you must." This is the theme of Finnegans Wake.




Getting back to the beginning, remember that "riverrun" was lowercase. Since Joyce isn't e.e. cummings, the reason is that this isn't the start of the sentence. For that we have to go to the end of the book. On the last page we find this:

End here. Us then. Finn, again! Take. Bussoftlhee, mememormee! Till thousendsthee. Lps. The keys to. Given! A way a lone a last a loved a long the

That is,
A way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, etc...


So the book is read in a circle, giving us the eternal Fall of Man and his rebirth through the ages.

There are other points being made in this opening sentence but I'll leave those aside. Just one more thing. That last page, which is Anna Livia's soliloquy, where she says "The keys to. Given!"

That refers to this earlier line:

How you said how you’d give me the keys of me heart.
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:25 PM   #53
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I'm really surprised Ulysses didn't make the list. Talk about laborious. That one made me want to murder myself in the face.
Totally! That and War and Peace were the first I thought of. Ulysses - the long sentences and strings of consciousness made me give up quickly. I've never finished it. War and Peace the language was fine, but the number of minor characters was insane. Some of those party scenes were impossible to keep track of who was who.
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:19 AM   #54
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I think it all depends on the level of understand one is trying to attain. Dante's Divina Commedia is a very difficult read, if you want to get the whole 'deeper meaning' - all the historical references and inside-jokes.

Shakespeare has always been difficult for me, because English is not my first language - or second, for that matter.

But I would say, the two worst challenges for me are tedium and anger.
Tedium is pretty straight-forward. Some books you just have to put down.
But anger is much worse. Some books you don't put down - you want to throw them, swiftly, out of reach. I tried reading 50 Shades of Gray. One thing is for sure. I would never, ever, be able to finish that. I can work through anything, from Milton to any stochastic calculus book. But I will never, ever, be able to finish that obscene (in prose, not content) aberration.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:21 AM   #55
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Exclude the philosophy books because much of philosophy is hard because highly technical, and exclude books that are called hard just because they are long, like "The FQ" (an unbelivably juicy book) and "Clarissa". Also exclude books that are hard because they play around with language in an allusive way, like "Finnegan's Wake" and most things by Gertrude Stein. That leaves books that are hard because what they are trying to convey in the best way they can is something elusive and subtle - "Nightwood" and "To The Lighthouse" fall into this - although I think "TTL" is pretty straightforward.
I would add some of the fictions of Maurice Blanchot, often very short but so difficult to construe that reading them is like trying to pick up a litter of greased piglets.
"Thomas The Obsucure" is pretty obscure, and "Awaiting Oblivion" shortens the wait considerably.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:02 AM   #56
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Exclude the philosophy books because much of philosophy is hard because highly technical, and exclude books that are called hard just because they are long.
I agree, I don't think it's fair to include Heidegger in that list, though that is the only one I've read as I did a philosophy module on him at university and it is tough to get your head round.

My vote would go to William Burroughs, Naked Lunch. I've tried to read this twice and just can't get through it. Perhaps I'm not taking on the right drugs...
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:30 PM   #57
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Here are the Lexile difficulty ratings for a number of books from classic literature:

http://ed.sc.gov/agency/programs-ser...Map8_10_09.pdf
See and in the "graduate school" section is a book on archaeology of England, and that's the sort of book I would think would be fun; however, I know the techincal words that would trip casual readers up.

I have trouble with absurd books, I like to have a form of logic going through, even if the logic isn't my logic. (I like The Metamorphosis though. I think about it every time I see those Orkin commercials with the talking bugs )
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:50 AM   #58
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My vote would go to William Burroughs, Naked Lunch. I've tried to read this twice and just can't get through it. Perhaps I'm not taking on the right drugs...
Well, that book wasn't meant to be read At least, not straight through or in its entirety--just picked up and opened at random from time to time.

The Cronenberg movie was pretty sweet.
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Old 08-14-2012, 04:22 PM   #59
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I think these books are easier to read if your stoned out of your mind--
_
Naked Lunch by William Burroughs
On the Road by Jack Kerouac
Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas by Hunter S. Thompson
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:16 AM   #60
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As a dyslexic I find reading a chore and generally listen to audio books. However, one of the easiest writer for me to read is Hunt S. Thompson. Maybe it's because we shared an affinity for psycodelics (sp) but I get that guy.

Have fun, Jan
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