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Old 08-08-2012, 08:08 PM   #31
SteveEisenberg
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. . . (ii) it could be shown that there's a logical connection between cutting people off the internet and reducing piracy.

Unfortunately, HADOPI managed neither (i) nor (ii) . . .
So all the mainsteam media sites who say French piracy declined are wrong?

I can even find a torrent-friendly web site admitting that French piracy declined. Not only is there a logical relationship between sanctioning piracy and people doing it less, there's objective evidence for it.

(As far as the rest of the headline, that sales didn't go up, this wasn't your claim in #29, but someone will perhaps now make it. We can at least say that book sales have held up.)

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If you get a parking ticket, I believe they must prove you were the one driving as it's the driver who entered into the parking contract, not the owner of the vehicle.
Since this is generally an impossibility, I suppose only fools put money in the meter where you live.


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I'm not condoning piracy, and I'm not saying that there shouldn't be sanctions.
Are you then saying then that there should be sanctions? Please tell us more about that. I'm apparently in the minority here, and need some help
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:41 PM   #32
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Since this is generally an impossibility, I suppose only fools put money in the meter where you live.
There's two issues that mean that doesn't occur

1) Most meters are operated by councils, they follow different laws with fines payable by the owner of the vehicle unless you've reported it stolen.
2) In the case or private parking (e.g supermarkets etc), anyone who decides to lie about not been the driver is risking a lot more than a small fine since perjury is a much more serious offence. You may have been caught on CCTV cameras installed in the car park, the traffic warden may have seen you and be able to provide witnesses to back up the claim. In short, lying is stupid and risky compared to the small fine.

With speed cameras, if you don't know who was driving your car at the time of the offence and you can show you've done all you can to find out, then you won't be fined. Of course if you lie and the police find phone records or photo evidence or witnesses to prove it, you're in even bigger trouble.

Most people do pay the fines because they know they were driving and the penalty for been caught lying is much more severe.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:47 PM   #33
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Are you then saying then that there should be sanctions? Please tell us more about that. I'm apparently in the minority here, and need some help
There has to be sanctions for piracy. The question is, how harsh should those sanctions be.

The harsher they are the more the burden of proof should be increased to ensure the innocent are not unfairly punished.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:56 PM   #34
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They did no such thing. They explicitly said they were not going to comment on the statistics in the report. And the report they quoted was from a Hadopy friendly-office.

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Old 08-08-2012, 08:57 PM   #35
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There has to be sanctions for piracy. The question is, how harsh should those sanctions be.

The harsher they are the more the burden of proof should be increased to ensure the innocent are not unfairly punished.
But there are sanctions for proved piracy (the ordinary old laws). The question here is what should hold for unproved piracy.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:22 PM   #36
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But there are sanctions for proved piracy (the ordinary old laws).
Maybe in your country. Where I live, the US, I have never heard of anyone sanctioned for downloading copyrighted books. Not with old laws, not with in-between laws, not with new laws. You easily find identifiable Americans admitting to piracy on this board, so confident they are that our laws aren't enforced.

Are there any horror stories about French people who lost their internet service because they couldn't find a book receipt? I haven't seen them. Maybe this is because books are an afterthought in the French program, although this shows that the enforcers are concerned with books. Googling, I haven't even found any evidence of falsely sanctioned music or movie downloaders. I would have to see actual evidence of innocent readers (beyond family members, who always suffer when loved ones are punished) who lost their internet access, not mere speculation that it could happen.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:42 PM   #37
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You cannot punish an alleged offender either in a civil court or criminal court without clear irrefutable evidence being provided.

One of the outcomes of the High Court appeal (AFACT vs iiNet) was that AFACT and its backers did not provide enough information (evidence) to iiNet regarding possible infringements. A Cease and Desist letter citing IP addresses would not be considered suitable evidence for iiNet to sever an accused customers internet connection.

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" Further, the Court held that the information contained in the AFACT notices, as and when they were served, did not provide iiNet with a reasonable basis for sending warning notices to individual customers containing threats to suspend or terminate those customers’ accounts. For these reasons, the Court held that it could not be inferred from iiNet’s inactivity after receiving the AFACT notices that iiNet had authorised any act of infringement of copyright in the appellants’ films by its customers."
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/04/hi...-afact-appeal/

Thus ends (for the time being) MPAA/RIAA (AFACT)'s whining demands for a three strike system here in Australia.

Tighter and tighter controls and more severe penalties will do little to stop copyright infringement. I hold little hope that MPAA, RIAA or the BPH's will make changes at their level to provide better distribution and supply models, which will reduce infringement.
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:04 AM   #38
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Are you then saying then that there should be sanctions? Please tell us more about that. I'm apparently in the minority here, and need some help
I think that copyright infringement is wrong, therefore there should be a suitable punishment for those who do it. I also think that the punishment should be proportionate to the offence, and that the accused should be proven to be guilty. As I said before, I'm not comfortable with the sanction being removal of internet access. I don't think is proportionate to the offence, and my understanding is that under the French "three strikes" law, it required very little proof.
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Old 08-09-2012, 07:28 AM   #39
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But there are sanctions for proved piracy (the ordinary old laws). The question here is what should hold for unproved piracy.
Exactly.

Cutting off a connection is in my view a disproportionate punishment to the amount of evidence needed to be sure the correct individual or group are been punished.
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Old 08-09-2012, 08:20 AM   #40
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They did not such thing. They explicitly said they were not going to comment on the statistics in the report. And the report they quoted was from a Hadopy friendly-office.
Exactly, the report didn't exactly come from an unbiased third-party source. But even if the findings of the report are accepted as true, that piracy was reduced immediately after the adoption of three-strikes (and because of three-strikes), so what? Why do content creators care about that if it doesn't also result in more sales (and the French minister of culture indicated that it hadn't)?

Was the point of the law to encourage people to pay for content, or to punish free riders who apparently weren't going to pay anyway?

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Old 08-09-2012, 08:33 AM   #41
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...

Googling, I haven't even found any evidence of falsely sanctioned music or movie downloaders. I would have to see actual evidence of innocent readers (beyond family members, who always suffer when loved ones are punished) who lost their internet access, not mere speculation that it could happen.
I like how you've subtly shifted from all infringers to just infringers of ebooks. In any event, your Google Fu needs work: http://www.zeropaid.com/news/94406/s...disconnection/ The link involves a false-accusation, not a false disconnection, but since one leads to the other, I'm sure you'll accept that.

But are you really going to hold fast to the position that a system that has the potential for disconnecting someone from the internet over accusations of infringement rather than proof doesn't carry with it the strong likelihood of a false disconnection?

Judging by most comments in this thread, your argument is mainly irrelevant since an even bigger concern people seem to have is that the punishment is disproportionate to the offence. There's no point in jumping up and down while screaming, "No one executed for murder is ever innocent!", when the ones you're arguing with think the death penalty itself is abhorrent.

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Old 08-09-2012, 09:10 AM   #42
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I can even find a torrent-friendly web site admitting that French piracy declined. Not only is there a logical relationship between sanctioning piracy and people doing it less, there's objective evidence for it.

(As far as the rest of the headline, that sales didn't go up, this wasn't your claim in #29, but someone will perhaps now make it. We can at least say that book sales have held up.)
I don't think that this is the point that they are making. They don't feel the need to contest the fact that piracy went down, they are simply pointing out that sales went down. Consider what was said in the OP. Hadopi was supposed to do more than just stop piracy, they were supposed to provide alternatives. If they would have done their jobs, sales should have increased.
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:17 AM   #43
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So if you commit copyright infringement in France .. they turn off your internet?

They really need to take a lesson from New Zealand and do something with a bit more 'panache'
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Old 08-09-2012, 11:19 AM   #44
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That torrent-friendly site does not admit piracy went down, they said they won't dispute the claims. One does not imply the other. They may just be less interested in the numbers game when there's more obvious ways to dispute the report.

It's hard to believe statistics from biased sources as anyone can twist the meaning in many ways, unless the raw data is available to be verified always question any source for or against.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...k-better.shtml

If any of you have 10-20 minutes spare, watch unit 7 of the udacity statistics course. It's a prime example of how you can obtain exactly the opposite results from the same data.

http://www.udacity.com/view#Course/s...2/Nugget/11005

The data used is simplified for example purposes but the example itself was from a real case.

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Old 08-09-2012, 03:10 PM   #45
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That torrent-friendly site does not admit piracy went down, they said they won't dispute the claims. One does not imply the other. They may just be less interested in the numbers game when there's more obvious ways to dispute the report.

It's hard to believe statistics from biased sources as anyone can twist the meaning in many ways, unless the raw data is available to be verified always question any source for or against.
Exactly.

One of my favorite quotes is ...

" Believe only half of what you see, and none of what you hear "

You cannot (and should not) take things for face value on the internet. There's too much posturing and vested interests on both sides of the fence.
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