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Old 08-03-2012, 01:32 AM   #31
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I have "given it all back to the teachers", as the Chinese say. Taiwanese I hear almost every day so I can understand a little, same with Cantonese. Their written forms are, of course, virtually identical to Mandarin.
A familiar saying that I also remember!

Well, actually the written Cantonese is quite different. (I just read one short story written in Cantonese last night and I found the Cantonese words strange.) I never learned to read Cantonese properly.
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Old 08-03-2012, 01:41 AM   #32
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A familiar saying that I also remember!

Well, actually the written Cantonese is quite different. (I just read one short story written in Cantonese last night and I found the Cantonese words strange.) I never learned to read Cantonese properly.
They use different expressions and some slightly varied syntax (我給這個你 is one such example --- seems real strange, but can be understood easily). I can read the HK newspapers without major problems. But the Taiwanese have incorporated lots of Japanese words into the local language, which actually makes it more difficult for Mainlanders to read than Cantonese.

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Old 08-03-2012, 01:58 AM   #33
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They use different expressions and some slightly varied syntax (我給這個你 is one such example --- seems real strange, but can be understood easily). I can read the HK newspapers without major problems. But the Taiwanese have incorporated lots of Japanese words into the local language, which actually makes it more difficult for Mainlanders to read than Cantonese.
That sounds interesting. Could you provide some examples? The reason being that 漢字 is Chinese incorporated into Japanese. Seems to me they would just imoprt back old Chinese expressions, or are they using characters to express words like kimoi キモい and ikumen イクメン?
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:45 AM   #34
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That sounds interesting. Could you provide some examples? The reason being that 漢字 is Chinese incorporated into Japanese. Seems to me they would just imoprt back old Chinese expressions, or are they using characters to express words like kimoi キモい and ikumen イクメン?
Taiwan was a Japanese colony from 1895 to 1945 and during that time Japanese was taught in schools. And unlike anywhere else in Asia, the Japanese did not behave too badly in Taiwan. They built up the infrastructure, educated the people, and kept the usual atrocities to a relatively benign minimum. So Japanese culture was welcomed, to some extent. Some examples from every day language are "ringo" for apple, "o to bai" for motorcycle, "o ba san" for an old lady, and "o ji san" for an old man. When they write they use the Kanji, but while speaking they use the Japanese pronunciation. None of these would be understood by a mainland speaker from Southern Fujian (where they use the same basic dialect). And many Taiwanese even use these words when speaking Mandarin.

The use of Japanese words is especially common for machinery and spare parts. Because many Taiwanese have opened factories in China these words have been also adopted by many mainland Chinese. But the mainland Chinese use the Kanji with the Chinese pronunciation. An example of this would be the sewing machine hook (if you have any idea what that is...), "Ka Ma" in Japanese (and pronounced that way by Taiwanese and even Koreans). The characters would be 大釜, Mandarin pronunciation is "Da Fu". But the proper Chinese word for it would be 梭頭.

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Old 08-03-2012, 03:10 AM   #35
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Haha, that made me laugh. 大釜 is Japanese slang for a homosexual "slut", meaning one who kan take a lot in that cauldron.

オートバイ or mc in Japanese its more like Ohhtobai, but yes I can see the resemblance. Fascinating how linguistic influences carry on.

Two years ago i was in Pusan and sitting next to me on the subway was an old man reading a Japanese book about Western musical history. So I began, in Japanese, to ask him questions about Beethoven, Brahms and Chopin. He shone up and started talking with me in stilted old style Japanese. He was clearly enjoying the opportunity to talk to a Westerner. My Japanese friend smiled benevolently and nodded along in the conversation. The old man turned towards my friend and started to say something in Korean, my friend said, in Japanese, that he didn't understand the language. The transformation in the old man was instant. He was still pleasant towards me, but my Japanese friend got the cold shoulder.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:31 AM   #36
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Haha, that made me laugh. 大釜 is Japanese slang for a homosexual "slut", meaning one who kan take a lot in that cauldron.

オートバイ or mc in Japanese its more like Ohhtobai, but yes I can see the resemblance. Fascinating how linguistic influences carry on.

Two years ago i was in Pusan and sitting next to me on the subway was an old man reading a Japanese book about Western musical history. So I began, in Japanese, to ask him questions about Beethoven, Brahms and Chopin. He shone up and started talking with me in stilted old style Japanese. He was clearly enjoying the opportunity to talk to a Westerner. My Japanese friend smiled benevolently and nodded along in the conversation. The old man turned towards my friend and started to say something in Korean, my friend said, in Japanese, that he didn't understand the language. The transformation in the old man was instant. He was still pleasant towards me, but my Japanese friend got the cold shoulder.
Oh yes, the Japanese are not well liked around Asia (especially most of the older generation can't forgive them). That feeling seems to be especially strong in Northern China and Korea.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:38 AM   #37
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I'm absolutely amazed that in 3 pages of comments, no one's made a joke. You all put me to shame.

I learned the basics of Russian in college, and had a friend who also took it a few years later, so I actually babbled in it for quite a while...but nowadays I think I remember about 12 words in all.

The only "other" reading I do these days is trying to muddle through the menu at the authentic Mexican restaurant up the street.

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Old 08-03-2012, 08:27 PM   #38
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Some examples from every day language are "ringo" for apple, "o to bai" for motorcycle, "o ba san" for an old lady, and "o ji san" for an old man. When they write they use the Kanji, but while speaking they use the Japanese pronunciation. None of these would be understood by a mainland speaker from Southern Fujian (where they use the same basic dialect). And many Taiwanese even use these words when speaking Mandarin.
I learned expressions such as "o ba san" first in Taiwan, and was surprised to find them again when living in Tokyo. It's a reason why studying history is very helpful. Now we understand many parts of the Japanese language remain even after Taiwan is no longer a colony of Japan.

Even though the Japanese language uses a lot of Chinese characters, we need to be aware that over time their meanings may have changed. For example, 妖精 in Japanese is "fairy" but in Chinese is "evil spirit".

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I can read the HK newspapers without major problems.
I was not encouraged to read Cantonese newspapers because they were for the "working class" only, or so I was taught.

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Old 08-03-2012, 10:49 PM   #39
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Even though the Japanese language uses a lot of Chinese characters, we need to be aware that over time their meanings may have changed. For example, 妖精 in Japanese is "fairy" but in Chinese is "evil spirit".
Don't forget that almost all characters have multiple meanings. The meaning in Japanese doesn't always correspond to the most common meaning in Chinese, but the same meaning usually also exists. Take Japanese i-ku 行 (to go). In Chinese it is usually used as "that works", but can also be used as the second part of 銀行 (bank). But in combinations such as 行動 (to get going) and 行程 (travel itinerary) the Japanese meaning, or something close to it, does exist.

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Old 08-03-2012, 11:10 PM   #40
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Even in Japanese the 行 character means "happening" or "taking place" but then it is read okonau 行う. This is one of the more frustrating features of Japanese, characters were brought over from China during different dynasties and regions, 生 has twelve different readings and as many meanings.
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Old 08-03-2012, 11:32 PM   #41
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Even in Japanese the 行 character means "happening" or "taking place" but then it is read okonau 行う. This is one of the more frustrating features of Japanese, characters were brought over from China during different dynasties and regions, 生 has twelve different readings and as many meanings.
That is the nice thing about Chinese. The pronunciation for each character is always only one syllable, and the vast majority have only one possible pronunciation. 行 above actually being one of the exceptions. It can be "xing" in 行動, etc. but it is pronounced "hang" for 銀行, etc.
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Old 08-04-2012, 02:41 AM   #42
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You guys are very good at the Chinese and Japanese languages!!! To add another twist, the Japanese language may have come from the Hakkanese (客家) dialect in China. There was a TV quiz program broadcast in Japan some time ago and they compared spoken Japanese with spoken Hakkanese to illustrate how close they are.
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Old 08-04-2012, 03:34 AM   #43
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You guys? Hmmm, I'll let it rest.

Hakka? I don't think so. Are there a fair amount of similar sounding words or really a lot? Is the similarities between Hakka and Japanese like Danish and Norwegian, or more like Italian and Spanish? Did you know that there are several words that not only sound the same, but have the same meaning in Japanese and Finnish? I don't think any linguist would start to claim that there is a relationship between the languages because of that phenomena.

At the university where I worked we had a linguist that specialized in Hakka (although she spent most of her time studying the language in northern Thailand) and she never even once mentioned that there might be a relationship between Japanese and Hakka.
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Old 08-04-2012, 03:47 AM   #44
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You guys? Hmmm, I'll let it rest.

Hakka? I don't think so. Are there a fair amount of similar sounding words or really a lot? Is the similarities between Hakka and Japanese like Danish and Norwegian, or more like Italian and Spanish? Did you know that there are several words that not only sound the same, but have the same meaning in Japanese and Finnish? I don't think any linguist would start to claim that there is a relationship between the languages because of that phenomena.

At the university where I worked we had a linguist that specialized in Hakka (although she spent most of her time studying the language in northern Thailand) and she never even once mentioned that there might be a relationship between Japanese and Hakka.
Honestly, there may be some similarities (words imported into Japanese from Hakka many centuries ago), but the languages are not related.

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Old 08-04-2012, 03:54 AM   #45
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Honestly, there may be some similarities (words imported into Japanese from Hakka many centuries ago), but the languages are not related.
Or the other way arround. Just because Hakka is on the mainland doesn't necessarily mean the flow has to go out to the sea and the islands.

The reason I become suspicious is that I have heard various claims being made by Japanese academics and then realized that they haven't followed even the most basic rules of scientific verification. I believe there are some that believe Japanese stem from Hebrew, based on some Yiddish words that sound similar to some Japanese words.
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