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Old 07-24-2012, 12:50 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post
This is rather unrealistic. Its like sayting that the market in Office Software is competitive because there are all these competitors to Microsoft Office. "Why there's Star Office, Abiword, Open Office, Iworks, Free Office-to say nothing of the Linux distros and don't forget Word Perfect." In reality, of course, MS Office has 90% of the market and is a monopoly in all but name.

In the ebook market, Amazon has at least a 55 % ( down from 90%) share, BN about 25%, Apple 10%, and then there's Kobo, Sony and Google in single figures and a handful of midgets in the fractions.THAT'S the reality of the ebook market. It's even worse than that, because BN is in real danger of going belly-up like Borders and may not survive a price war with Amazon.
Most analysts think its a question of when, not if, Amazon regains an 80% share of the ebook market under a "wholesale" price model market.
Google, Apple, Microsoft and Rakuten can compete with Amazon on price.

In fact, Google, Apple, Microsoft in a much better position to compete on price than Amazon. Amazon margin is already razor thin. Google, Apple, Microsoft all have fat margin.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:52 PM   #32
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In reality, of course, MS Office has 90% of the market and is a monopoly in all but name.
I know... crazy, right? And then the whole Document and Pie Chart Creation industries came crashing down around people's ears shortly after they achieved that saturation point; remember? Millions of Tend-line plotters and Inter-Office memo specialists lost their jobs because of that de facto monopoly. We're just now crawling out of those dark ages.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:59 PM   #33
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I know... crazy, right? And then the whole Document and Pie Chart Creation industries came crashing down around people's ears shortly after they achieved that saturation point; remember? Millions of Tend-line plotters and Inter-Office memo specialists lost their jobs because of that de facto monopoly. We're just now crawling out of those dark ages.
Heh, heh. Funny. Microsoft is laughing all the way to the bank. MS. Office is a huge cash cow with fat margins. MSFT has exploited the hell out of that monopoly.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:08 PM   #34
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Jane at Dear Author has a write up on the DOJ's comments to the comments received. I liked this bit:

Quote:
DOJ suggests that if brick and mortar stores are so important to traditional publishers that the traditional publishers subsidize those businesses instead of asking ebook consumers to do it.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:15 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Top100EbooksRank View Post
Google, Apple, Microsoft and Rakuten can compete with Amazon on price.

In fact, Google, Apple, Microsoft in a much better position to compete on price than Amazon. Amazon margin is already razor thin. Google, Apple, Microsoft all have fat margin.
Or not. Those companies don't HAVE to be in the ebook market. (Microsoft isn't in the ebook market really). Apple may be content with its 10 % share so long as it adequately serves its hardware customers.

I could certainly see those companies coming to an " understanding" about ebook prices that would leave Amazon dominant .

What the publishers want is a diverse marketplace of retailers who are excited about getting the best books. What looks like happening now is a retail market dominated by ONE retailer who is itself competing with the publishers by starting its own publishing arm . That is not a good scenario for the publishers.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:19 PM   #36
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Is Word Perfect still around? I did not know that. Is there any distribution outside the US? Used to love that software, they had fantastic support. Wasn't it based in Utah?
We have a lawyer in our office who still uses the legal edition of WordPerfect. I don't know if that's due to an industry standard or he just fears change.

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Old 07-24-2012, 01:30 PM   #37
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We have a lawyer in our office who still uses the legal edition of WordPerfect. I don't know if that's due to an industry standard or he just fears change.
Woaew, I can't believe the price they charge for it. Five times the price of MS Office. No wonder I haven't heard about them for the last ten years, or so.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:36 PM   #38
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Is Word Perfect still around? I did not know that. Is there any distribution outside the US? Used to love that software, they had fantastic support. Wasn't it based in Utah?
Yes, originally.
They were the industry standard for legal offices at one time (ca. 1985-90)

They just chose poorly between supporting Windows 95 and OS/2 and never recovered lost ground.

It is currently owned by Corel, still maintained and improved.
Very nice product at a very nice price. (For the consumer version.)
US$30-80.
http://www.amazon.com/Corel-WordPerf.../dp/B0006PJAZU

I have a Writer friend who swears by it.
http://www.corel.com/corel/pages/ind...anguageCode=en

You can even get a free trial to see how it's evolved.

Another good alternative to MS Office is Softmaker Office; they have a free version for Windows as well as a commercial release (in final Beta) for Android.

The *corporate* Office Suite market belongs to Microsoft (thanks to Exchange and Sharepoint) but the consumer-level Office suite market is nicely competitive. (Even Lotus Smart Suite is still in business.)
http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus...ts/smartsuite/

Last edited by fjtorres; 07-24-2012 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:50 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post
This is rather unrealistic. Its like sayting that the market in Office Software is competitive because there are all these competitors to Microsoft Office. "Why there's Star Office, Abiword, Open Office, Iworks, Free Office-to say nothing of the Linux distros and don't forget Word Perfect." In reality, of course, MS Office has 90% of the market and is a monopoly in all but name.
Hmmm...and WHY does MS Office have 90% of the market? Is it because they give away the product? No...not that I know of. Actually, quite a few of those competitors ARE Free, yet they still aren't competing. Is it because they have gone out and viciously attacked Star Office and the other competitors? No...I believe the reasons are:

1. Functionality--MS Office does more than the competitors. (Even if other products do some things better, none of them do EVERYTHING that MS Office does)
2. Marketing--Microsoft actually <gasp> advertises it's product.
3. (And this is actually part of marketing) Microsoft makes agreements with PC manufacturers to put trial versions of MS Office onto the computers.
4. An actual sales staff/partner program that works to put the software into the business environment.

I don't understand your point, unless your point is that Amazon has the largest market share because they are the best at what they do. If that's what you're trying to say, then I agree. If that's not what you're trying to say, then please explain it better.

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Old 07-24-2012, 02:03 PM   #40
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I don't understand your point, unless your point is that Amazon has the largest market share because they are the best at what they do. If that's what you're trying to say, then I agree. If that's not what you're trying to say, then please explain it better.
My point is that you can't say that a market is competitive by naming a list of competitors. You have to look at market share. Sure, Lotus Smart Suite is still out there but no one can think of it as a serious rival to MS Office any more.
As to effect of Amazon's market domination, see post #35 above . It has little to do with how "good" Amazon is for consumers, it ain't that good for publishers and authors.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:16 PM   #41
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Some of the quotes I enjoyed:

The ABA and its members do not distinguish between print and e-book online sales, and they offer no explanation for why e-books allow free riding by online sellers but print books, which are unaffected by the proposed Final Judgment, do not.
-----

In this case, the third parties that the Court is directed to consider under the Tunney Act are the consumers of e-books, not the brick-and-mortar booksellers, which admit that they benefited from the conspiracy.
-----

No objector to the proposed Final Judgment has supplied evidence that, in the dynamic and evolving e-book industry, Amazon threatens to drive out competition and obtain the monopoly pricing power which is the ultimate concern of predatory pricing law.
-----

B&N is not, then, simply a company concerned about its contractual rights. Instead, more basically, it is worried that it will make less money after the conspiracy than it collected while collusion was ongoing.
-----

Many comments state or imply that Publisher Defendants must stand in the place of consumers to preserve quality. Such a paternalistic view is inconsistent with the intent of the antitrust laws, which reflect a legislative decision to allow competition to decide what the market does and does not value.
-----

...all of the intellectual property rights of authors remain subject to market competition. To the extent Mr. DeFiore’s complaint reflects dissatisfaction with the state of that competition, it is not relevant to the proposed Final Judgment.

-----

Mr. Kohn offers the Court his views of the proper standard it should employ in ruling on a motion to dismiss, even though none of the settling or non-settling defendants (each of which is represented by highly experienced and sophisticated counsel) chose to move to dismiss the Complaint.
-----

NACS claims the Complaint did not identify harm arising in the e-textbook market, so the Final Judgment should be modified to exclude e-textbooks from the prohibition of limits on retail discounting in the decree. Id. at 11-12. However, it was not necessary to expressly exclude e-textbooks from the proposed Final Judgment because none of the Settling Defendants sell e-textbooks....
-----

Apple’s claim that it “will have to quickly negotiate new agreements with these publishers under a dark cloud of uncertainty in just seven days,” Apple at 5, ignores that more than three months have already passed since the proposed Final Judgment was filed, during which time Apple has been free to pursue its negotiations with Settling Defendants.
-----

I'm currently trying to decide how to convert it to an ebook. Legal docs are hard; they're crammed with footnotes, and there's no *good* way to make that work in epub or mobi. I may just convert to HTML with endnotes and post it on a blog somewhere. The entire opinion is under 20k words, novella-length.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:52 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post
My point is that you can't say that a market is competitive by naming a list of competitors. You have to look at market share. Sure, Lotus Smart Suite is still out there but no one can think of it as a serious rival to MS Office any more.
As to effect of Amazon's market domination, see post #35 above . It has little to do with how "good" Amazon is for consumers, it ain't that good for publishers and authors.
If you look at the response from the DOJ, they really don't care what effect it has on publishers or authors. This is about protecting the consumers from predatory practices by businesses.

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Old 07-24-2012, 03:15 PM   #43
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If you look at the response from the DOJ, they really don't care what effect it has on publishers or authors. This is about protecting the consumers from predatory practices by businesses.

Shari
Indeed. However, the publishers and authors have their interests and they made their view clear in the many comments critical of the settlement. They would say that the settlement might benefit the consumer short term, but hurt the consumer long term. We'll see.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:24 PM   #44
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They would say that the settlement might benefit the consumer short term, but hurt the consumer long term. We'll see.
This is the bit I don't understand. They're worried that it will hurt the consumers if Amazon eventually decides to raise the prices... like they did?

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Old 07-24-2012, 03:32 PM   #45
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Indeed. However, the publishers and authors have their interests and they made their view clear in the many comments critical of the settlement. They would say that the settlement might benefit the consumer short term, but hurt the consumer long term. We'll see.
And the DOJ made it very clear that the comments from the people in the industry were, for the most part, irrelevant to the case. Did you read any of the responses? Some that are listed right here in this thread?
Quote:
Many comments state or imply that Publisher Defendants must stand in the place of consumers to preserve quality. Such a paternalistic view is inconsistent with the intent of the antitrust laws, which reflect a legislative decision to allow competition to decide what the market does and does not value.
Quote:
...all of the intellectual property rights of authors remain subject to market competition. To the extent Mr. DeFiore’s complaint reflects dissatisfaction with the state of that competition, it is not relevant to the proposed Final Judgment.
Quote:
Many critics of the settlements view the consequences of the conspiracy—higher prices—as serving their own self-interests, and they prefer that unfettered competition be replaced by industry collusion that places the welfare of certain firms over that of the public. That position is wholly at odds with the purposes of the federal antitrust laws—which were enacted to protect competition, not competitors. See, e.g., Brown
Shoe Co. v. United States, 370 U.S. 294, 320 (1962).
Do you really still think that the settlements aren't going to be approved?

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