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Old 11-16-2012, 10:58 PM   #541
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Originally Posted by holymadness View Post

There are 130 pages of blatant recommendations to copy almost every UI element of iOS. I don't see this being debunked in the Groklaw page you linked to.
This is a mischaracterization of what that document is. There were no "blatant recommendations to copy almost every UI element" ... rather it identified functionality and UI elements (but more so functionality) that in comparison to iOS could use improvement, but there was no recommendation to simply "copy" the implementation of these things outright.

This type of powerpoint presentation is frequently done in almost every large company in order to compare their products with the competition and identify areas for improvement. It's nothing unusual.

I've also had a chance to read a little on that groklaw site, and it sounds like the verdict is on thin ice for various reasons:

1) The conduct of the jury foreman is in question as he incorrectly interpreted various points of law to his fellow jurors -- for example he was totally wrong about the need for interchangeability as it pertains to prior art. The rest of the jury therefore dismissed instances of prior art based on this incorrect interpretation.

2) The background of the jury foreman is in question. He was involved in contentious litigation with Seagate that he didn't fully disclose before the trial started. Samsung holds a very large stake in Seagate. It was therefore a conflict of interest.

3) Apparently, the jury returned confusing verdict forms, awarding damages for devices they found did not infringe on Apple's patents.

4) Some legal experts expect that this may go all the way to the Supreme Court due to the questionable patentability of UI elements -- that is if the verdict isn't thrown out by the trial judge or an appeals court first.

So there's no clear or quick path right now for Apple to collect on this verdict. Samsung has a good chance to ultimately prevail -- or at least get the judgment significantly reduced.

--Pat
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:04 PM   #542
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Many is not the same as all. Saying "many people are stupid" is of course not a personal insult. Also you can say things about a group jokingly but with a kernel of truth. Such as in this case.

But personal attacks that some people here makes very often are of course always wrong.
Exactly. This is the first forum I've ever been on where groups of anonymous people cannot be criticized. Most forums simply prohibit genuine "personal insults" but otherwise any group can be criticized, mocked, or insulted with the exception of racist or sexist comments, of course.

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Old 11-16-2012, 11:36 PM   #543
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This is a mischaracterization of what that document is. There were no "blatant recommendations to copy almost every UI element" ... rather it identified functionality and UI elements (but more so functionality) that in comparison to iOS could use improvement, but there was no recommendation to simply "copy" the implementation of these things outright.

This type of powerpoint presentation is frequently done in almost every large company in order to compare their products with the competition and identify areas for improvement. It's nothing unusual.
Hahahaha
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:56 AM   #544
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I read somewhere (I forgot where and now I hate myself for it, lol) about the conversation the management had with the team, and the complete one indicated that they wanted the team to use iOS as a benchmark of sorts, and to use that as inspiration to surpass Apple.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:07 AM   #545
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complete one indicated that they wanted the team to use iOS as a benchmark of sorts, and to use that as inspiration to surpass Apple.
And in that regard, according to current market penetration results, Sansung seems to have succeeded in surpassing Apple very well. Now, instead of responding with renewed design vigor, Apple is just trying to diminish competition by lawsuits.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:19 AM   #546
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I think we can safely say that the original Galaxy phone was quite similar to the iPhone in many ways. Which was one of the reasons it wasn't as successful as later versions, who wants more of the same? Since then Apple has been pretty much samsunged in the mobile phone market, with Samsung taking the lead in looks, design, specs, and functionality. They sell more than twice as many high-end phones as Apple, even though major models cost the same (Galaxy III) or are even more expensive than the iPhone (Note II).

So if it happened, it is over and done with it, no phone from any major brand even remotely reminds us of the iPhone now --- let us face it, unless we are talking about a local Chinese brand, why would anyone want to copy the iPhone5?

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Old 11-17-2012, 03:29 AM   #547
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While the two buildings don't look "exactly" the same, the Apple clone is extremely derivative of prior designs, ripping-off the most prominent features of two well-known architectural masterpieces. Which wouldn't be so bad if they hadn't had the gall to patent the design. It's laughable.

If you can't see it, you're not very observant about architecture, nor are you very objective.

--Pat
Sigh...

You've missed the whole point about the distinctions between inspiration and blatant copying.
As this was one of the main items being discussed, I can only assume that you missed some of the posts, got bored, or speed read the posts.

You're not a Twitter user are you by any chance?
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:33 AM   #548
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Exactly. This is the first forum I've ever been on where groups of anonymous people cannot be criticized. Most forums simply prohibit genuine "personal insults" but otherwise any group can be criticized, mocked, or insulted with the exception of racist or sexist comments, of course.

--Pat
Come on, this is blatant disingenuousness.

Your criticisms are not aimed at anonymous people, they aimed at others in the thread who are opposed to your viewpoint.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:40 AM   #549
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Well - really, no. Seriously. You won't believe the time it can take a designer to get a simple thing right,
I can believe that it is possible to waste lots of time doing something any talented high school student could complete in minutes. That still does not even remotely compare to the work involved in the design of significant functional blocks in a smartphone.


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Sadly, you're just wrong here. I know it sounds completely counter-intuitive, and very possibly quite mad, but sometimes 'simple' design is quite the opposite. To achieve something that looks simple is often much more complex than something which looks, well - complex.
Maybe so, but that does not detract from the fact that it is trivial compared to the real work and education involved in functional design. If the design look is unique enough then maybe it deserves trademark protection, but it certainly is well outside of the class of work deserving patent protection.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:11 AM   #550
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I can believe that it is possible to waste lots of time doing something any talented high school student could complete in minutes. That still does not even remotely compare to the work involved in the design of significant functional blocks in a smartphone.
Yeah, right. That Michael Schumacher, what was all the fuss about? He just drives a car fast and does a bit of overtaking. There's no skill, he doesn't even have to drive in reverse!

And that Lionel Messi? He just kicks a ball around. He's so good because he's small and nimble. Everyone else is too big and slow to catch him. I bet I could do that if that was all I had concentrated on since I was about 4!

They are paid so much more than programmers or hardware designers, people who do really hard stuff, for stuff anyone can do. it's a massive injustice.

99% of phones are functionally more or less identical. They make phone calls, access the internet, send and receive messages and run apps. The main differences are design and price. Apple have proved that design matters, because people are prepared to pay a lot more for it. It's the design that has made Apple the most valuable company in the world.

Pretty good for something 'that could be done by a high school student in 15 minutes!'

You probably ought to accept that design is something you just 'don't get'. It's fine. There are lots of things I don't understand either. Like finance or electricity or Justin Bieber, and I'm sure you function a lot better in the world than I do!

To some people, paying more for Apple products is like a red rag to a bull, and they will use words like "sheeple". But - it's the same principle as buying a BMW or an Audi instead of a Daewoo, or an Omega instead of a Timex.
It always amuses me when I hear BMW drivers railing about idiots who overspend on Apple products.

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Maybe so, but that does not detract from the fact that it is trivial compared to the real work and education involved in functional design.
Not necessarily. Depends entirely on exactly what 'functional design'. Some are just algorithms for managing processes more efficiently. We're not talking about Nobel prize stuff, they are just mobile phones after all.

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If the design look is unique enough then maybe it deserves trademark protection, but it certainly is well outside of the class of work deserving patent protection.
That's fair, but I accepted that already, as you will see if you have read all the earlier posts. Do keep up

I can completely understand how you might have lost focus though :P
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:19 AM   #551
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I can completely understand how you might have lost focus though :P
No loss of focus, just reiterating the most important point.


Your whole thrust of comparing one in a billion individuals to people who actually have to learn the work they do was amusing. I bet they could also put X squares in a rectangle with dimensions Y by Z with no trouble too.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:44 AM   #552
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No loss of focus, just reiterating the most important point.


Your whole thrust of comparing one in a billion individuals to people who actually have to learn the work they do was amusing. I bet they could also put X squares in a rectangle with dimensions Y by Z with no trouble too.
You think you don't need to learn this stuff? What on earth do you do for a living? I'm sure I could ridicule and trivialise that too, same as with almost any profession.

Your complete denial of any skill or talent in design is really interesting. It's either mischievousness or complete ignorance. By this I mean ignorance in the true sense of the word as in 'having absolutely no knowledge of' instead of the perjorative term.

Design has common principles across all its different disciplines. When you study design you genuinely do have to learn to appreciate the principles of context, contrast, balance, harmony, consistency etc. Some people are naturally more tuned to this stuff than others. It's not just sitting in a studio with a pencil behind your ear for 3 years (5 or 6 for architecture) screwing around and waiting for inspiration, with a bit of sketching thrown in.

Your point is almost analogous to comparing a professional musician to a high school student, and saying "It's just musical notes, played in the right order".

The point is that just because something looks easy, doesn't mean to say it is.

You can substitute Michael Schumacher for Takuma Sato or Messi for Dejan Lovren (Croatian defender, plays for Lyon) if you are sensitive about demeaning the work of true masters, but it still doesn't change the fact that good design requires just as much skill, studying,talent and practice as many other things.

You can, (and probably will) dispute this, but you'll be wrong, because you don't understand design and your perspective is skewed.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:03 AM   #553
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You think you don't need to learn this stuff?
You can, (and probably will) dispute this, but you'll be wrong, because you don't understand design and your perspective is skewed.
That is what this discussion is all about isn't it. You are under the impression that you are right and that I am wrong just because I view the subject from a different perspective than you. I do know for a fact that functional product designers can and have produced useful visual designs in the past, but no visual designer stands a chance of producing something useful in the function design arena. That is an element of the perspective difference.

You seem to be under the impression that visual design is in the same category of difficulty as functional design in a smartphone product. While such designs are of obvious importance, they are still trivial in comparison to functional product elements. Samsung is by far the leader in the design of smartphone functional products, in the context of this threads subject anyway. So much so, that Apple has been buying those functional elements from Samsung, since Apple was incapable of producing those functional elements themselves.

Also you seem to be substituting quantity of words for proof that the design elements that Samsung was sued about were actually worthy of the patent protection Samsung was wrongly accused of violating. That just does not work.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:17 AM   #554
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Sigh...

You've missed the whole point about the distinctions between inspiration and blatant copying.
As this was one of the main items being discussed, I can only assume that you missed some of the posts, got bored, or speed read the posts.

You're not a Twitter user are you by any chance?
There's a thin line between inspiration and "blatant copying" and not everyone can even agree as to where that line is. In light of your line about suing anyone who copied the design of a building, Apple's UWS store is a hoot. Again., especially so since they had the nerve to file a patent on it.

I use twitter but I don't see how that is relevant to anything. If you want to communicate with me directly, PM me.

--Pat
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:43 AM   #555
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Come on, this is blatant disingenuousness.

Your criticisms are not aimed at anonymous people, they aimed at others in the thread who are opposed to your viewpoint.
Absolutely not. If you can find me one forum -- anywhere -- that prohibits the disparaging of groups of people (not based on race, sex, religion) then that would be the first one I've ever seen. Every forum I've ever come across that prohibits personal insults makes the distinction between the personal and general. Either you're disingenuous when you say you don't see the difference or you're really dense.

I've never come across a forum that would ban the use of relatively innocuous words such as "sheeple." This is not profanity we're talking about here. But, I guess to Apple fans, the word is profoundly profane. Which I find very funny in itself. If someone here were to say some or many Android fans were blind lemmings, so what? No big deal. That's merely someone's opinion and it isn't a personal insult. I can only conclude the use of the word "sheeple" in any context hit too close to home for many actually engaging in this and other recent Apple-related threads here in the news forum, which kind of validates the usage of the term to begin with.

In regards to my own specific use of the "SH" word , I suggest you go back and read this entire thread as well as the thread titled "$329 iPad Mini" ... where I explained on more than one occasion my use of the term and specifically who it relates to. Obviously you (and others) missed it.

--Pat

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