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Old 04-15-2008, 11:36 AM   #76
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There are a lot of useful genres - but we need to keep it to a minimum number. We can always use tags, if needed, to specify a book more narrowly.
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:59 AM   #77
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i think thriller definitely goes better in action / adventure than in mystery. however it could be a tag, rather than a category.
Sure it is a tag but then the question remains as to the category. I was thinking mystery because the user might except to find it there and it has similar suspense but perhaps action is better. Is thriller different from horror?
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Old 04-15-2008, 12:45 PM   #78
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Sure it is a tag but then the question remains as to the category. I was thinking mystery because the user might except to find it there and it has similar suspense but perhaps action is better. Is thriller different from horror?
please PLEASE for the love of all things holy keep thriller and horror away from mystery !! those clearly belong in "action / adventure" (or whatever we are calling the adrenaline-based category). some mysteries may be spooky sometimes but that is not a defining characteristic (a story certainly does not have to be "thilling" and even less "horrifying" to be mysterious), and while i imagine that some horror stories might include an element of mystery (i wouldn't know, because i wouldn't read one if you paid me) it's certainly not a pre-requisite. if the two ever *are* lumped together, it's probably one of those situations where the person organising the books couldn't think of a better place to put them so "meh, let's just stick them with the mysteries."
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Old 04-15-2008, 01:23 PM   #79
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please PLEASE for the love of all things holy keep thriller and horror away from mystery !! those clearly belong in "action / adventure" (or whatever we are calling the adrenaline-based category). some mysteries may be spooky sometimes but that is not a defining characteristic (a story certainly does not have to be "thilling" and even less "horrifying" to be mysterious), and while i imagine that some horror stories might include an element of mystery (i wouldn't know, because i wouldn't read one if you paid me) it's certainly not a pre-requisite. if the two ever *are* lumped together, it's probably one of those situations where the person organising the books couldn't think of a better place to put them so "meh, let's just stick them with the mysteries."
OK, Ok, that was the clear direction I was looking for.
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Old 04-15-2008, 01:40 PM   #80
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OK, Ok, that was the clear direction I was looking for.
glad i could help. not that i feel strongly about it, or anything...

now here's another question. i'm pretty sure i know the answer but i want to be sure. imagine i want to categorize "The Importance of Being Earnest" ; it's a play, and we don't have a "theatre" or "play" category, so i'll put it in "short fiction" and then add tags of "play" and "comedy". is this right ?
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Old 04-15-2008, 01:41 PM   #81
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Here is what I have to this point:

Fiction - only to be used when nothing better fits.
Action
Graphic
Mystery
Romance
SF&F
Short Fiction
Young Adult

Nonfiction - only to be used when nothing better fits.
Biography
History
Philosophy
Reference
Spiritual

Poetry - for all poetry - tags used to determine type

I am not sure we need young adult but it is ok I guess.

What I did was group the headings but is that what everybody wants? In the interest of reusing the various prefixes does it make sense to restrict them the way I grouped them?
Could there be the same prefix in both fiction and nonfiction with the word fiction or nonfiction showing up in the tags?

For example: Graphics means Manga, comic books, etc. but could it also be used for a coffee table book on travel or art.

Could biography be used for legends? Could History be used for historical fiction? Could action be used for real life adventure stories?

Where does humor go?

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Old 04-15-2008, 01:47 PM   #82
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Where does humor go?
Under the category Unutterable Silliness. Of course, if it's unutterable isn't unwritable, too? And therefore......
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Old 04-15-2008, 01:55 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleDe View Post
Here is what I have to this point:

Fiction - only to be used when nothing better fits.
Action
Graphic
Mystery
Romance
SF&F
Short Fiction
Young Adult

Nonfiction - only to be used when nothing better fits.
Biography
History
Philosophy
Reference
Spiritual

Poetry - for all poetry - tags used to determine type

I am not sure we need young adult but it is ok I guess.
i think young adult is important ; we already have a lot of "youth" series and it deserves its own category.

Quote:
What I did was group the headings but is that what everybody wants? In the interest of reusing the various prefixes does it make sense to restrict them the way I grouped them?
Could there be the same prefix in both fiction and nonfiction with the word fiction or nonfiction showing up in the tags?

For example: Graphics means Manga, comic books, etc. but could it also be used for a coffee table book on travel or art.
if you mean that it restricts the fiction categories from overlapping with the non-fiction categories, then as you say, if necessary we can add a (non)fiction tag, however it might be simpler *not* to restrict things. people will probably understand that a Fantasy story does not need to be specified as "fiction".

Quote:
Could biography be used for legends? Could History be used for historical fiction?
i don't think biography and legends are quite the same thing. but what do you mean exactly by legends ? i also don't thing historical fiction should go with history ; there is no such thing as a completely objective historical account, granted, but still history at least *claims* not to be making anything up. whereas historical fiction might only have a few shreds of historical semi-fact as window-dressing, for ambiance, and then veer off into totally un-verified approximation.

Quote:
Could action be used for real life adventure stories?
that seems reasonable, unless they are actually biographical accounts which could get a *tag* of "action" (sorry, i know this may not be helpful...)

Quote:
Where does humor go?
i was wondering about humor myself. maybe it can go in fiction, with a "humor" or "comedy" tag.

Last edited by zelda_pinwheel; 04-15-2008 at 03:16 PM. Reason: fixing one incorrect markup and one amusing but confusing mistake.
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Old 04-15-2008, 01:56 PM   #84
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Under the category Unutterable Silliness. Of course, if it's unutterable isn't unwritable, too? And therefore......
oh, is that going to be a category ? i've been using it as a tag...
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Old 04-15-2008, 02:25 PM   #85
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oh, is that going to be a category ? i've been using it as a tag...
I think it should be used as a flag. To warn all sensible people away.
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Old 04-15-2008, 02:43 PM   #86
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I think it should be used as a flag. To warn all sensible people away.
maybe we should come up with some kind of warning label, like on cigarette packets :

"Warning. This thread contains absurdity, surreality, and other elements of unutterable silliness. Prolonged exposure can lead to inflammation of the zygomatic muscles and spleen. Your sense of humor must be at least as tall as the red line to participate."

or even better :
"Abandon all hopelessness, o ye who enter here."
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Old 04-15-2008, 03:07 PM   #87
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i think young adult is important ; we already have a lot of "youth" series and it deserves its own category.



if you mean that it restricts the fiction categories from overlapping with the non-fiction categories, then as you say, if necessary we can add a (non)fiction tag, however it might be simpler *not* to restrict things. people will probably understand that a Fantasy story does not need to be specified as "non-fiction".

Could biography be used for legends? Could History be used for historical fiction?

i don't think biography and legends are quite the same thing. but what do you mean exactly by legends ? i also don't thing historical fiction should go with history ; there is no such thing as a completely objective historical account, granted, but still history at least *claims* not to be making anything up. whereas historical fiction might only have a few shreds of historical semi-fact as window-dressing, for ambiance, and then veer off into totally un-verified approximation.


that seems reasonable, unless they are actually biographical accounts which could get a *tag* of "action" (sorry, i know this may not be helpful...)


i was wondering about humor myself. maybe it can go in fiction, with a "humor" or "comedy" tag.
thanks, Clearly young adult will need to stay. I was not suggesting that everything have a tag for fiction or nonfiction only in the case where the entry placed by the user needed clarification. I assumed single use for the genre that was defined but then wondered if I had overstepped the ideas that other people had. I though I would do a sanity check.

Legend is often an extension of a real person. For example if you were to write about King Arthur's life there are no real facts that can be verified about this likely read person from the sixth century but legends about him certainly exists. Most of what we know of Robin Hood is legend. There are also popular legendary people that are likely or possibly composites of real people. These are the kinds of things that might assume a fictional biography category if there were such a thing.

Certainly historical fiction and real history are very different things as are any of the categories I mentioned as possible overlaps. Some historical fiction borders on legends and some are about a fictitious or composite person but the facts apart from the story itself are all very accurate. The tag would define which is was. However, if anybody would get confused over this I can drop the whole idea. That is why I asked the question in the first place.

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Old 04-15-2008, 03:27 PM   #88
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Legend is often an extension of a real person. For example if you were to write about King Arthur's life there are no real facts that can be verified about this likely read person from the sixth century but legends about him certainly exists. Most of what we know of Robin Hood is legend. There are also popular legendary people that are likely or possibly composites of real people. These are the kinds of things that might assume a fictional biography category if there were such a thing.
yes this is how i define legend as well. in this case however i *still* would not mix it with biography ; i think it is rather analogous to the history / historical fiction dilemma. a legend *may* be based on a real person, but to what extent ? what if it's based on an amalgam of 12 different real people ? what if it was based on a misunderstood rumor about an alleged person which actually had no truth to it whatsoever ? what if it was based on a grain of truth but had been so altered through centuries of incomplete / incorrect retellings that it no longer bore any resemblance to the original story ? maybe we should create (yet another...) category for "myths and legends" (which seem to me to have more in common than either one with history), or simply put those in "fiction" with a "myth" or "legend" tag.

Quote:
Certainly historical fiction and real history are very different things as are any of the categories I mentioned as possible overlaps. Some historical fiction borders on legends and some are about a fictitious or composite person but the facts apart from the story itself are all very accurate. The tag would define which is was. However, if anybody would get confused over this I can drop the whole idea. That is why I asked the question in the first place.

Dale
i personally think it's wisest not to mix history and fiction, even if it's historical fiction (and even if "History" is itself simply a legitimised fiction, to varying degrees...). after all, History is supposed to be Non-fiction, whereas "historical fiction"... well it's right there in the name. but this is just my opinion.
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Old 04-15-2008, 04:58 PM   #89
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yes this is how i define legend as well. in this case however i *still* would not mix it with biography ; i think it is rather analogous to the history / historical fiction dilemma. a legend *may* be based on a real person, but to what extent ? what if it's based on an amalgam of 12 different real people ? what if it was based on a misunderstood rumor about an alleged person which actually had no truth to it whatsoever ? what if it was based on a grain of truth but had been so altered through centuries of incomplete / incorrect retellings that it no longer bore any resemblance to the original story ? maybe we should create (yet another...) category for "myths and legends" (which seem to me to have more in common than either one with history), or simply put those in "fiction" with a "myth" or "legend" tag.



i personally think it's wisest not to mix history and fiction, even if it's historical fiction (and even if "History" is itself simply a legitimised fiction, to varying degrees...). after all, History is supposed to be Non-fiction, whereas "historical fiction"... well it's right there in the name. but this is just my opinion.
Well there has not been too much feedback but I think you have indicated that the direction I already was headed is the right one. So unless there is some compelling argument to the contrary I will leave the wiki page divided as is and just fill in some more details. Thanks for listening to my ramblings.

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Old 04-15-2008, 05:03 PM   #90
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so, wait, no-one ever answered my question all the way back in post number 80.
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