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Old 01-03-2008, 04:28 PM   #316
tompe
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Originally Posted by Alan View Post
Lower prices were mentioned, yes. I wrote about that argument in my last post. Also digital watermarks were mentioned. I also wrote about that. And that pretty much were all alternatives people came up with.
Things that have been mentioner are for example donation models, pay afterward, pay for the next book, prenumerations, and so on. Also why think that just because you cannot think of something plausible now there will not be something that works very well in the future?
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Old 01-03-2008, 04:30 PM   #317
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What's good for the publisher is not necessarily good reading.
But in this case for the system we have now it is extremely good for reading since the can take more risks and publish more authors so in the system we have today the have done a very good job when they publish a bestseller and this is a good job for the reader also.
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Old 01-03-2008, 05:21 PM   #318
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Things that have been mentioner are for example donation models
Donations? Well, I don’t know how you earn your living, but I doubt that you live by donations. I am sure you expect a good payment for your efforts at work. So why do would you think an author or publisher should expect less?

If you want to read a book – pay for it or don’t read it. It’s simple and plain. If you want that bagel for breakfast, pay for it or simply only enjoy the view of it. But you certainly won't eat it and “donate” some coins to the baker. And likewise an author don’t want to receive donations but a payment for his work.

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pay afterward
Fine. Nothing wrong with that. If I mail order something I get often billed later for it. I first receive the good (or service) and pay my bills later. That’s OK of course. But the author or publisher has to be able to get you before a court of justice if you won’t pay what you owe him. This is almost impossible if you live in Sweden and download an ebook from the U.S. or Germany. And how will this payment option prevent you from spreading an unconceivable amount of illegitimate copies of that book all over the world? It would still need some kind of copy protection.

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pay for the next book
Well, if an author or publisher decides to use that kind of a promotion, fine. But I doubt that will become something common. If you go to a new department store, supermarket or car dealer, do you really expect them to give you the first item free? I don’t think so. Book clubs and subscription provider use this kind of promotion very often. But than you will commit yourself to buy a certain amount of books in the future. If you will do that, fine. But again: How will this payment option prevent you from spreading an unconceivable amount of illegitimate copies of that book all over the world? It would still need some kind of copy protection.

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prenumerations
What kind of remuneration do you mean?

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Also why think that just because you cannot think of something plausible now there will not be something that works very well in the future?
There might very well be something that works. I have never doubted that. But right now there are two problems to be addressed: First, the author/publisher want to get paid for his work. And second, since unprotected ebooks can be copied without any limit, there needs to be some kind of restriction on how you can handle that ebook when it comes to copying.

Some of your suggestions are fine, but they are no solution to the second problem.

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Old 01-03-2008, 05:36 PM   #319
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Alan, there's some doubt as to how much unauthorized distribution of commercially published ebooks is really going on. Most of what's being tossed about the darknet are scans of paper books, which people get because there are no commercial ebooks available for those titles. There is also some sharing of cracked DRM books, which some people get because they want to protect their investment after purchasing a DRM book, and some people get because they don't want to deal with a DRM book at all. But if non-DRM books in a common, feature-rich format (like ePub) were available for a wide range of titles at a reasonable price, I really do believe that the vast majority of customers would simply pay for them and download them from a legitimate site. It would be much, much easier than rummaging around on the darknet, not to mention safer. There are exceptions of course -- some people seem to feel no need to pay for anything, or don't think they should have to pay for niceties like editorial support or typesetting, and sure some people will let a friend or family member read a book they've bought, but I think the actual losses of sales through any of these means would be very small compared to the increase in revenue. Does it matter how many copies could theoretically be illegally distributed of an electronic title if sales go up overall? If I were managing a publishing operation, I'd be prepared to stake a chunk of my business on this premise.
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Old 01-03-2008, 05:48 PM   #320
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If you want to read a book – pay for it or don’t read it. It’s simple and plain.
I think all your comment assumes to much and are to much locked in in a thinking based on how it works today. If I want to read a book I often borrow it from a friend so you are trivially wrong in your statement above.
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Old 01-03-2008, 05:50 PM   #321
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Does it matter how many copies could theoretically be illegally distributed of an electronic title if sales go up overall?
You are right of course. But look how it went on the music market. Sure, music companies ignored the wishes of their customers for legitimate download opportunities long enough. But of course there was an alternative. Everybody could have bought an actual CD, ripped it (though in many European countries this is illegal if the CD is copy-protected) and transferred the music to their MP3 players. That was and still is a (half) legal way to get music for your MP3 player. But what did most people (yes, also me) do? We used P2P networks to get the music free.

Now the music industry goes around an begin to sue people for up- and sometimes even downloading music from P2P networks. Suddenly it becomes more and more dangerous do get music through those channels. And now sales on legitimate sites are going up constantly. People switch to legal ways. This is partly because of the danger to get sued and partly because even DRM music is easy to use these days (iTunes).

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Old 01-03-2008, 06:01 PM   #322
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If I want to read a book I often borrow it from a friend so you are trivially wrong in your statement above.
You can borrow and lend books from and to friends. That is not illegal. It is totally your right. You can also go to a library and borrow books there - even ebooks in some libraries. They also use DRM and limit the life time of such ebooks.

If an ebook has been bought at fictionswise or mobipocket you can also borrow an ebook from friends or lend them some. They or you simply have to change the PIDs on the shop site the books were bought at. That's the legal way. It is a little more complicated than simply give you paper book to a friend, sure. But you usually paid less for an ebook than you would have paid for a paper book, and besides technical issues it is the same. You bought one paper book and can lend only one. If you lend it, you won't have it anymore until you get it back. It's the same with DRM protected ebooks. Where is the problem?

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Old 01-03-2008, 06:58 PM   #323
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You can borrow and lend books from and to friends. That is not illegal. It is totally your right. You can also go to a library and borrow books there - even ebooks in some libraries. They also use DRM and limit the life time of such ebooks.
What has legality with this to do? We are talking about possible ways to do things and we are talking about what the moral things to do should be. When I proposed a donation system were nothing illegal is done you said that you have to pay if you want to read a book as that was some natural law or something. I pointed out that thas is not true even today.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:29 PM   #324
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That is correct. And that is also the reason why DRM is only easy and secure (for the customer) if bought at big companies like Amazon (Mobipocket).
Until Amazon gives up on the format, like they did with the Microsoft Reader ebooks. I bought quite a few from Amazon, and can no longer access them. so, if anything happens to the backup copies I'm SOL. This isn't specifically about DRM, but is the problem with all the competing formats, each with their different DRM. If there was a standard, you might not see companies deciding to completely drop support. This is also one reason you will never find my buying an ebook device put out by Amazon.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:20 AM   #325
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I think some very good and well know author are word blind for example. From my point of view the most important thing is if the author can tell a story. Spelling and gramatical errors can be fixed by other people.
So what's next? Somebody to make a draft and somebody to think up the characters because this would be too much burden for one person to handle?

If you make your living off of writing, you should at least be able to write without the publisher behind your back giving you Elementary School tuition on how to write in English (or, for that matter, any other language) that is void of mistakes.

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You are right of course. But look how it went on the music market. Sure, music companies ignored the wishes of their customers for legitimate download opportunities long enough. But of course there was an alternative. Everybody could have bought an actual CD, ripped it (though in many European countries this is illegal if the CD is copy-protected) and transferred the music to their MP3 players. That was and still is a (half) legal way to get music for your MP3 player. But what did most people (yes, also me) do? We used P2P networks to get the music free.

Now the music industry goes around an begin to sue people for up- and sometimes even downloading music from P2P networks. Suddenly it becomes more and more dangerous do get music through those channels. And now sales on legitimate sites are going up constantly. People switch to legal ways. This is partly because of the danger to get sued and partly because even DRM music is easy to use these days (iTunes).
Um no. The last time I bought something legally (a DVD film) and showed it to a friend I was laughed at for wasting money when I could have downloaded it. So no, I honestly doubt people are moving towards legal alternatives.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:10 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by rlauzon View Post
I see you've not been bitten by DRM yet.

Try reading that DRMed eBook on a reader that Mobipocket doesn't support (which is most eBook reading devices) and see how easy and hassle-free it is.
This is your statement rlauzon, YOU make the claim that most e-reader devices do not support mobipocket format. I disputed this and pointed out that there are a wide variety of devices which do support the format. At NO point did I state that all devices read the format.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:44 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Alan View Post
You are right of course. But look how it went on the music market. Sure, music companies ignored the wishes of their customers for legitimate download opportunities long enough. But of course there was an alternative. Everybody could have bought an actual CD, ripped it (though in many European countries this is illegal if the CD is copy-protected) and transferred the music to their MP3 players. That was and still is a (half) legal way to get music for your MP3 player. But what did most people (yes, also me) do? We used P2P networks to get the music free.

Now the music industry goes around an begin to sue people for up- and sometimes even downloading music from P2P networks. Suddenly it becomes more and more dangerous do get music through those channels. And now sales on legitimate sites are going up constantly. People switch to legal ways. This is partly because of the danger to get sued and partly because even DRM music is easy to use these days (iTunes).

Alan
Until that comment, I thought you were just a somewhat blindingly "letter of the law" abiding citizen. Then this came up.

Although the second part could be that of someone blinded by the propaganda, the first isn't.

Either you're a fool, or you're a shill of the industry: whatever the spin is, in most European countries it still is legal to make a back-up copy of a CD or to rip it for personal use.

I think nobody is that much of an idiot, so my guess is you're in the later category.
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Old 01-04-2008, 05:28 AM   #328
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Either you're a fool, or you're a shill of the industry: ... I think nobody is that much of an idiot, so my guess is you're in the later category.

- uncalled for, imho.
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Old 01-04-2008, 05:32 AM   #329
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This isn't specifically about DRM, but is the problem with all the competing formats, each with their different DRM.
Actually, the problem is with DRM.

DRM requires a closed, proprietary format in order to work. Standard DRM cannot exist.
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Old 01-04-2008, 05:33 AM   #330
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This is your statement rlauzon, YOU make the claim that most e-reader devices do not support mobipocket format. I disputed this and pointed out that there are a wide variety of devices which do support the format. At NO point did I state that all devices read the format.
And you have made the argument that DRM is OK based on the idea that Mobipocket is well supported.
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