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Old 07-21-2012, 06:55 AM   #16
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@mmat1 Jellby

Thanks for the lesson.

I take good note of it.
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Old 07-21-2012, 07:01 AM   #17
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but at some point it surely becomes simpler to have 2 styles e.g.

1. class="para1" - for 1st paragraphs, styled to have zero indent, set margins to taste ( also useful after a scene break)

2. class = "para" for all other paragraphs, set indent & margins to taste

rather than a complicated h3+p... expression that will need editing whenever you come
up with a new way of starting a chapter ?

so your book now has 1 x body 1 x header , 2 x paragraph styles.

add extra styles e.g. for italics, if needed, or to have different indents and/or text sizes for such narrative things as diary entries, book extracts, signage, notes slipped under doors....

...but don't go overboard on that stuff, big chunks of bold or italicised text may look ok on the printed page but can look awful on an e-reader
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:03 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybmole View Post
but at some point it surely becomes simpler to have 2 styles e.g.

1. class="para1" - for 1st paragraphs, styled to have zero indent, set margins to taste ( also useful after a scene break)

2. class = "para" for all other paragraphs, set indent & margins to taste

rather than a complicated h3+p... expression that will need editing whenever you come
up with a new way of starting a chapter ?

so your book now has 1 x body 1 x header , 2 x paragraph styles.

add extra styles e.g. for italics, if needed, or to have different indents and/or text sizes for such narrative things as diary entries, book extracts, signage, notes slipped under doors....

...but don't go overboard on that stuff, big chunks of bold or italicised text may look ok on the printed page but can look awful on an e-reader
It is really simpler. (except for the expectation of a Exactly consistent layout)
Using Jellby's example: Notice that there are No class= statements.
You are styling standard tags.
Consider the: h3 + p {font-face: italic }
could be used to modify the style of the first paragraph after the h3 to be just a italic variation on the standard P tag used in the book.

All any section (file) needs is the <link to the stylesheet >
Nothing else.
Can't get much simpler.
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theducks View Post
It is really simpler. (except for the expectation of a Exactly consistent layout)
Using Jellby's example: Notice that there are No class= statements.
You are styling standard tags.
Consider the: h3 + p {font-face: italic }
could be used to modify the style of the first paragraph after the h3 to be just a italic variation on the standard P tag used in the book.

All any section (file) needs is the <link to the stylesheet >
Nothing else.
Can't get much simpler.
fair enough - if the objective is to eliminate all "class=" tags, but that seems an arbitrary goal.

how would you do scene breaks, with your scheme ?
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cybmole View Post
fair enough - if the objective is to eliminate all "class=" tags, but that seems an arbitrary goal.

how would you do scene breaks, with your scheme ?
The goal was to prove a SIMPLE book needed no special edits (classes)

So you could either do a scene break using:
some unused header tag <h4>
Using a line break <br /> in the last paragraph
Use a paragraph with only a &nbsp;

Or wrap each Scene in a <div> and set a margin on the div's
Code:
<div>
<p> all the 1st scene para
</div>
<div>
<p> Scene 2 para
</div>

IMHO if you need that control, start using classes
and drop out of simple mode
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Old 07-22-2012, 04:43 AM   #21
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For the scene-break, I'd go for the
Code:
<p>&nbsp;</p>
but also include a class for scenebreak, so you can easily edit heights to your own preference.
Code:
<p class="scenebreak">&nbsp;</p>
and in css
Code:
p.scenebreak {margin-bottom:1em;}
Slightly more difficult than the SIMPLE wanted, but if you're using the css and the h#+p rules, then this addition would be just as simple - once you've gone through you html (or rege'd it) to add the scenebreak class to all your required empty scenebreak paragraphs.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theducks View Post
It is really simpler. (except for the expectation of a Exactly consistent layout)
Using Jellby's example: Notice that there are No class= statements.
You are styling standard tags.
Consider the: h3 + p {font-face: italic }
could be used to modify the style of the first paragraph after the h3 to be just a italic variation on the standard P tag used in the book.

All any section (file) needs is the <link to the stylesheet >
Nothing else.
Can't get much simpler.
Yes and no--in this specific discussion, I can attest with much exasperation that the :first-letter and, while we're at it, various pseudo-elements for first-line, etc., don't actually work in most readers.

As far as scenebreaks and vertical whitespace, I have to admit that though I still occasionally shortcut that way (add an extra empty paragraph, bad Hitch) and have done so in the past (ditto), I am not a fan thereof, as it is routinely and thoroughly ignored. I personally feel that it's better to simply create a nice, cleanly-named class, e.g., "scenebreak" or "CH-first-para" for whitespace, using a simple margin-top setting (which, remember, means that it can be changed across the board, instead of schlepping around adding "returns" and then going into CV to add nbsp's, than using the "return" method). When you're stuck with the output, using the 'return' method, then you have to go in and manually screw with it if you don't like how it looks on (insert reader type here).

Also: Ducky, although you know I love you dearly, I'd also point out, for the OP, that there isn't actually anything wrong with learning styling by using Word to do some of the lifting for you when you're starting out, or, as he is, DIY'ing. Does Word output an HTML that's messy? Yes, but if someone uses nice clean Word styles throughout, not ad hoc styles, you can actually end up with not-bad HTML base from which to work.

When I first started out, I mean, making ePUBs, after I learned how to make MOBI's, back in the MBPCreator days, I used to use Word and and BookCreator, to go through and come up with a relatively clean Word file that I could export to HTML. Now, it's faster for me to regex, but it wasn't then. If you use Styles that you create (Normal, First-Para, Scenebreak, etc.), you can export those quite simply to HTML and there isn't anything wrong with it. There is, practicably speaking, no real difference between the CSS that Word outputs and the CSS you might create by hand. Of course, you have to clean up TONS of bollixed up garbage that you would NOT have used--and heavens knows, about 1800 lines of font-styling, every time, but a paragraph styled in Word and exported to HTML doesn't bear the mark of Cain on it, after all. ;-)

Sure, that's not how I do things NOW, but at the end of the day, for those folks who still work with Word files by and large, whether you export to HTML forthwith and work in that, or use something like BookCreator or some other interim step/macro, a CSS style is a CSS style is a CSS style, no matter how it got in the style sheet. I thought the OP and perhaps others coming along might find knowing that useful. I agree, Ducks, that learning HTML and CSS is excellent; but I used many exported-from-Word CSS styles to learn how to manipulate styles, back when Brontosaurs walked the earth, and I don't think that the OP will hurt himself too badly if he does the same (using ACTUAL Styles, not ad hoc styles, remember).

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Old 07-24-2012, 11:16 PM   #23
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Ducks tried to get Wordperfect to create a simple web page back when they were prototyping dirt .
Ducks hated what came out and learned to hack away. (I can send you a Link, those pages are up on the Internet wayback machine by PM)
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:21 PM   #24
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Ducky:

I believe you. But that was a loooooooooooooooooooong time ago. What WordPerfect, OO, Word, Atlantis, etc., put out today is a lot better, and, this OP was specifically discussing Word, which, when cleaned, really is perfectly passable. Please note: "when cleaned," because 'tis true, a lot of extraneous garbage does get planted in there.

And, I concur that folks who want to do this all the time should clearly learn the skillset--but this guy doesn't want to come to work for me, he wants to publish his own books. It's not the same thing, and I don't think that we should act like it is.

I mean, after all---we help people here who use Calibre to make ePUBs, and then ask us how to clean up the CSS in that, who have FAR less understanding of what happened than did this guy. Righty-o?

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Old 07-27-2012, 02:25 PM   #25
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It should go without saying that the OP (me) is fascinated by the discussion among the experts that his question started. I hope that no one reading this will consider my comments blasphemy, but I'd like to second Hitch's description of my objective, and that it has been so from the very beginning of my sojourn into indie publishing.

There is no question that a writer's best use of time is to write. And if I were a successful writer with sufficient income from that activity to pay others for all the steps required to put a nice-looking eBook and POD paperback on the market, I'd jump on that option in a heartbeat.

Back to reality, I'll probably never see more than the average indie author in terms of sales, and that puts me in the mode of trying to write the best books I can and break even as my first two objectives. It simply makes more sense for me to find the time to invest, particularly since once I've done that, I don't have to invest the same amount of effort learning new skills with every book I publish. To rely on others is to repeat the initial monetary investment each and every time.

I have no love for Word, but I've learned to maneuver around its limitations and build a template with all the styles I need to format the books exactly the way I want them, including a set of scrubbing actions to remove the most common troublemakers when converting to eBook and POD formats.

I fully appreciate the fact that Word's save-as-html function creates a result that experts on this forum consider to be "messy," and that's probably a mild descriptor in relation to what you really think of it. But when I can open that file in Sigil, insert the chapter breaks, generate the TOC and save as an epub that converts to a mobi with Calibre, the messiness behind the scenes is immaterial when both formats appear flawlessly with ADE and Kindle for Mac and on a Kindle, Nook, iPad, etc.

For now, the quality of the end product has to be my prime objective, regardless of the means used to get there. Maybe someday I'll be able to get a job with Hitch, but until then, I have a process that produces eBooks and POD paperbacks with InDesign that won't win awards, but neither do they repel readers with anything that screams amateur.

That said, I don't for a moment think that any expert on this forum couldn't look at one of my books and show me how to improve it. Maybe someday I'll discover exactly how.

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Old 07-27-2012, 04:07 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango Mike View Post
I fully appreciate the fact that Word's save-as-html function creates a result that experts on this forum consider to be "messy," and that's probably a mild descriptor in relation to what you really think of it. But when I can open that file in Sigil, insert the chapter breaks, generate the TOC and save as an epub that converts to a mobi with Calibre, the messiness behind the scenes is immaterial when both formats appear flawlessly with ADE and Kindle for Mac and on a Kindle, Nook, iPad, etc.
But different users have different practical definitions for "flawlessly"

If a book looks OK, but does not react to my reader's settings of margin, font, etc., I don't call it flawless. And automatically-converted books have a tendency to behave like this, I'm afraid.
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:37 PM   #27
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The first thing to do is run Sigil without any ePub loaded. Turn off Tidy and close Sigil. Then load Sigil with your ePub. Those SGC styles are a pain in the ass and should not exist. Turning off Tidy will stop Sigil from generating them.
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:45 PM   #28
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Code:
body {
widows: 0;
orphans: 0;
margin-top: 0;
margin-bottom: 0;
margin-left: 0;
margin-right: 0;
text-align: justify
}
p {
margin-top: 0;
margin-bottom: 0
text-indent: 1.2em
}
.noindent {
text-indent: 0
}
.spacebreak {
margin-top: 2em
}
.center {
margin-top: .5em;
margin-bottom: .5em;
text-align: center
}
h2 {
margin-top: 1em;
margin-bottom: 1em;
text-align: center;
font-weight: bold
}
Code:
<h2>Chapter Header with space above and below at a good size</h2>
<p class="noindent">Paragraph with no indent</p>
<p>Paragraph with no indent</p>
<p class="spacebreak">Paragraph with space in front for a scenebreak</p>
<p class="center">A centered paragraph with space above and below the centered paragraph</p>
There you go for most cases. Also, widows and orphans are turned off.

Last edited by JSWolf; 07-27-2012 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:48 PM   #29
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Tango Mike:

My sole caveat on this is that it is currently true that Amazon is routinely rejecting books (mobis) made with Calibre--if your book makes it through uptake, you should be okay, but be aware.

I have a lot of writer clients, obviously, and I agree with you--a writer's time is best served writing. Many of us here are grouchy and crabby and some are inflexible--but I'm pretty sure if you run into a jam, we'll be happy to lend you an assist if we can. ;-)

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Old 07-27-2012, 04:49 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango Mike View Post
Thank you, Sir Perkin. You have solved the problem.

If you don't mind a follow-up question:

Would it be correct to say that inserting the return in Sigil book view created a corresponding code that equates to white space, which the rendering engine (ADE in this case) eliminated, but the replacement code filled the space with content (invisible to the reader) that then appears as a blank line?
That is very poor code. See the message above this one that I posted to do it a lot neater.
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