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Old 12-13-2007, 09:21 AM   #46
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Amazon would be crazy...

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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
but Amazon would have to be crazy to object to it.

This tool is definitely NOT illegal in any way, shape, or form. Well done again!
...to object to a tool that robs them of potential revenue, eh? Would be NUTS to squash something that could cost them to lose money, huh?

It would be absolutely BONKERS for them not to protect their business model...just NUTS, right?

You realize that these same arguments are on the "other side" right?!

Bezos said himself that the model here is to lock the sales so they can undercut the competition and make up on volume. They would be crazy not to protect this model, you say?

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Old 12-13-2007, 09:25 AM   #47
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It's not "circumventing DRM". The Kindle uses Mobipocket DRM; this is merely a tool to allow you to add the Kindle as one of the (up to four) devices that Mobi DRM allows a book to be encoded for. The book is still DRM protected and can't be read on any unauthorised device.

Amazon own Mobipocket. They still get your money whether you buy your books from Amazon directly or from MobiPocket. The benefit of buying from MobiPocket is that you can also read your books on any of the other devices which support the Mobi format.

This tool will encourage me to buy a Kindle if and when it's released in Europe, because it will allow me to preserve my investment in DRM-protected Mobi books.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:34 AM   #48
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Justify....Justify...

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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
It's not "circumventing DRM". The Kindle uses Mobipocket DRM; this is merely a tool to allow you to add the Kindle as one of the (up to four) devices that Mobi DRM allows a book to be encoded for. The book is still DRM protected and can't be read on any unauthorised device.

Amazon own Mobipocket. They still get your money whether you buy your books from Amazon directly or from MobiPocket. The benefit of buying from MobiPocket is that you can also read your books on any of the other devices which support the Mobi format.
Ummm.

1. If you by a DRM'd mobi from anyone, even with the PID from the kindle it DOES NOT WORK. The format is *changed* to the Kindle format. I've read the source code.

The Book IS NOT AUTHORIZED. If it were authorized, then the file would not have to be *made to work* Harry.

Amazon runs mobi as a separate business. Mobi's money is mobi's money and the Kindle store's money is the Kindle Store's money.

Sounds like you are justifying "stealing" from the Kindle store because you already "own" a copy of the book in a non-Kindle format

Where have I heard this before.

Either it is or it ain't.

Pot. Kettle. Howdy!
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:43 AM   #49
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So Harry...why is it "wrong" then...

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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
This tool will encourage me to buy a Kindle if and when it's released in Europe, because it will allow me to preserve my investment in DRM-protected Mobi books.
...to break the DRM on mobi's or pdf's or lit's to read them on a Sony device?

Or is this not your position on that matter?

And this is an honest question; i don't intend it to be facetious.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:43 AM   #50
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Ummm.

1. If you by a DRM'd mobi from anyone, even with the PID from the kindle it DOES NOT WORK. The format is *changed* to the Kindle format. I've read the source code.
That's because the Kindle also checks the supplier code in the file. The tool changes the supplier code to that of Amazon.

Quote:
The Book IS NOT AUTHORIZED. If it were authorized, then the file would not have to be *made to work* Harry.
We are talking at cross-purposes. When I say "authorised", I mean that DRM has not be removed from the file. You couldn't post it on the internet and have it used by anyone with a Kindle. It will only work on the specific Kindle whose PID it has been encoded for.

Quote:
Sounds like you are justifying "stealing" from the Kindle store because you already "own" a copy of the book in a non-Kindle format
Goodness knows that people here should know that I do NOT condone stealing e-Books. I've made that clear enough, I hope. Perhaps I need to write more posts expressing that viewpoint...

Format conversion is "fair use". This is a format conversion tool. It is NOT a DRM-circumvention tool.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:52 AM   #51
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You are redefining DRM to fit your needs and desires here.

YOU don't get to decide what the vendor has authorized. THEY do. Its part of the problem.

Amazon has not authorized any DRM content from anyone but Amazon. Because it is a technical roadblock doesn't make it any more right than someone buying a book from a vendor and "converting the format" to some other hardware that it will work on *regardless* of if that format is locked or not and they "could" share it.

If they never do then the "could" part should have ZERO relevance.

The Kindle is not authorized to use DRM'd content from anywhere but Amazon. You can't have it both ways.

Actually, you CAN, but from your postings previous, those that choose this path are...criminal
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:02 AM   #52
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The vendor of the book is MobiPocket. They will encode a book for any device with a legitimate MobiPocket PID. This tool simply supplies such a PID. It is tied to a specific Kindle, so it's not reducing the "strength" of the DRM on the file at all.

This IS a breach of the Kindle Terms of Service, absolutely. Breaching that is not breaking either criminal or civil law. Amazon would be perfectly within their rights to prevent you from using the Kindle service as a result of your violation of the TOS, I suspect, should they wish to do so. That is something that each individual Kindle owner has to decide whether or not to risk.

Perhaps we had better just "agree to differ" about this. I do not own a Kindle, but welcome this tool as a means of leveraging the usage of previously-purchased Mobi DRM content on it. That can only be good for Kindle sales.

Others may of course disagree. That's fine.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:23 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkai View Post
As its kind of obvious what fictionwise is doing here. They are sending files for conversion, having Amazon send them back, then publishing those as there is no licensed tool to create AZW files available DRM'd or otherwise.

I'm going to assume there isn't a "no redistribution" clause in the Terms of the email conversion service. Is this outlined in the Kindle manual somewhere?
I do not believe it is obvious at all and I do not believe your interpretation of what fictionwise is doing is anywhere close to the mark. What seem obvious to me is that Fictionwise is changing the extension on their Mobi files since that is all that is required to make them work directly on the unit and it is just a convenience for their customers.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:28 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleDe View Post
What seem obvious to me is that Fictionwise is changing the extension on their Mobi files since that is all that is required to make them work directly on the unit and it is just a convenience for their customers.
That would certainly seem like a much more reasonable explanation, given that DRM-free Kindle files are just ".mobi" or ".prc" files renamed to ".azw".
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:36 AM   #55
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DRM isn't just designed to protect content. It is designed to protect content within the framework of a particular business model.

Every single "consumer benefit" point you have made is pretty much the same as folks that oppose it. The "but its OK" point for you seems to be the actual content.

This is certainly a most...curious and unusual response to this problem, and it completly glosses over the issue that the Kindle store is being caused to lose "potential sales, money and revenue" with this scheme, revenue they have (heheh) the "right" to earn to support this product and the business model.

"They'll sell more Kindles" sounds a lot like "they'll sell more tickets" or "they'll sell more consoles" or...whatever.

"The vendor of the book is MobiPocket. They will encode a book for any device with a legitimate MobiPocket PID. This tool simply supplies such a PID. It is tied to a specific Kindle, so it's not reducing the "strength" of the DRM on the file at all."

Mobipocket is not authorized to sell books that work on the Kindle. Try going to Mobipoket and buying an AWZ of "I Am America (And So Can You)"

You can't. They aren't authorized for that device and format. A technical "end run" is no different than bypassing CSS on a DVD you bought to make it play on an unauthorized player.

And guess what? The DRM (CSS...the content on a DVD is digital. It is encrypted and region locked to prevent unauthorized usage and to restrict playback on certain devices) is *still on the DVD* when you do this, too. Ask a Linux person about this foolishness.

The restrictions are end-to-end. Flipping the ends to suit your needs then rationalizing why its ok to do so isn't right.

Or...is...it? I'd say we are more in agreement in this matter than I think you wish to admit

Last edited by mrkai; 12-13-2007 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:39 AM   #56
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Alright.

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Originally Posted by DaleDe View Post
I do not believe it is obvious at all and I do not believe your interpretation of what fictionwise is doing is anywhere close to the mark. What seem obvious to me is that Fictionwise is changing the extension on their Mobi files since that is all that is required to make them work directly on the unit and it is just a convenience for their customers.
That works too.

Too bad those drm'd mobi files aren't the same as drm'd awz files tho huh?
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:40 AM   #57
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mrkai why are you not jumping all over my posts telling people about MS Reader DRM removal for format conversions?
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:49 AM   #58
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I don't understand what is all the fuss about.

It is absolutely not forbidden to put elsewhere bought content on the kindle, right?

It is perfectly legal and in accordance to the TOS to load bought content on the kindle. What is the difference if it is DRMed or not?

The power of the tool that I see is that kindle owners can now at last unDRM and backup their bought AZW files for the distant future when kindle maybe won't be around anymore.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:50 AM   #59
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mrkai why are you not jumping all over my posts telling people about MS Reader DRM removal for format conversions?
Because I find absolutely nothing wrong with it whatsoever.

I do not have a double standard in these regards. I am simply exploring this issue from the "other side" as in this regard the justifications seem to parallel those.

It "wrong" to convert content you purchased from one format to another because you aren't licensed to...or so we are told.

But it seems that its OK in this case because it suits the needs of those that wish it and the same justifications seem...valid here.

Which is nuts

Not a single person here has been able to demonstrate that using a DRM'd mobi is allowed on a Kindle without changing what they purchased. Someone else even posted a note from another bookseller explain why this is the case. Its not authorized or permitted.

But yet, because we can do a workaround to remove the technical limitation in THIS case to protect what we've bought and use exercise "fair use" its all OK

Even the reasons for doing it are the same...but yet we are told time and time again its all "wrong".

Funny, that. I guess in this instance, you reall are buying the "words in the book" and not the "eBook" itself huh? In THIS case you can do with what you bought whatever you want ::
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:53 AM   #60
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Quote:
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Not a single person here has been able to demonstrate that using a DRM'd mobi is allowed on a Kindle without changing what they purchased.
That's because I refuse to debate the issue with you while you are being obnoxious.
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