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Old 12-12-2007, 10:53 PM   #31
Steven Lyle Jordan
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Oh, come on.

Amazon is not telling you you can't read non-Amazon documents on their Kindle... that's why they allow you to read other formats.

Also, converting a document you own from one format to another, for your own use, constitutes "fair use."

mrkai, you're just trying to pick a fight.
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Old 12-13-2007, 01:36 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jordan View Post
Oh, come on.

Amazon is not telling you you can't read non-Amazon documents on their Kindle... that's why they allow you to read other formats.

Also, converting a document you own from one format to another, for your own use, constitutes "fair use."

mrkai, you're just trying to pick a fight.
Amazon seems to have made it *pretty clear* that they don't wish to allow drm'd purchases from other resellers on the kindle: it will not view them, now will it, Steve?

Is it "fair use" if you retain multiple copies of this document that can be read in different places simultaneously by different people, Steve?

We'll see

Since Amazon via mobipocket controls the licensing of the software and whatnot that allows sellers to drm their books with mobi-fu...

We'll see won't we when all of these mobi booksellers have to inform you that "unfortunately, we cannot accept the PID supplied. Thank you for understanding."

This PID would be in the very distinct and easily identifiable Kindle format, with the nifty * in it


An you should read the TOS for the Kindle. "Enhancements" and "Augmentations" are not defined in such a way to exclude slipping commercial drm'd content not licensed or sold by amazon onto the Kindle.

And just like drm reversing for ink cartridges was struck down even tho it was circumvention for interoperability, so do does this fall under that shadow.

I'm not picking a fight. I am making sure that people are crystal clear on the position.

It seems that you like to have it both ways. Its fine to screw amazon if the author/publisher is getting paid, is it?

Ok, that last line there could be construed as fight-pickery

-K

Last edited by mrkai; 12-13-2007 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 12-13-2007, 02:23 AM   #33
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MobiPocket Reader already does this?

Um, doesn't MobiPocket Reader already tell you what your Kindle's PID is? If I plug my Kindle into my USB port with MobiPocket Reader running, Reader auto-detects the Kindle and adds it to my list of devices. If I then click the 'properties' button for the Kindle, the PID displayed in the dialog matches the PID generated by the kindlepid.py python script.

The kindlefix.py script is very handy though!
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Old 12-13-2007, 02:30 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkai View Post
I'm not picking a fight. I am making sure that people are crystal clear on the position.
Can you quote what part of the Amazon TOS you think this violates? The only part I can think applies is the restriction against reverse engineering the software or hardware of the Kindle. And I don't think it's completely 100% clear whether determining what the Kindle's PID is constitutes reverse engineering, although possible.

I found no restriction listed in the TOS that says you can't put or use random DRM software on the device. Indeed, in the part where it defines its use of the term "digital content" it explicitly restricts it to that sold in the Kindle Store:
The Kindle Store. The Kindle Store enables you to download, display and use on your Device a variety of digitized electronic content, such as books, subscriptions to magazines, newspapers, journals and other periodicals, blogs, RSS feeds, and other digital content, as determined by Amazon from time to time (individually and collectively, "Digital Content").
Thus, none of the TOS referring to the term "digital content" applies to content obtained elsewhere, whether DRM'ed or not. When such terms are expressly defined with quotes, as is done in the TOS, they obtain the narrow definitions in the document instead of any other meaning.
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Old 12-13-2007, 04:06 AM   #35
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Alright. First there is: Use of Digital Content.

You are not allowed to use any Digital Content not authorized by Amazon on the device:

Notice that in the Digital Store/Kindle Store section that Amazon get to pick how this is defined..."from time to time.

You are not allowed to "augment" or "circumvent" any part of the Kindle, the Device or the Software. Note that you are also not allowed to "substitute" any digital rights management functionality of the Device or Software, either...

...and that is exactly what is going on.

Defined any way you please, this is overriding a specific built-in part of the "Service" as well as the "Software".

The Kindle doesn't allow for reading DRM Mobi. Its NOT ALLOWED. Amazon made it clear that this was not allowed by *not* having them work, didn't they? Further they changed the extension and tweaked the internals of mobi files. This was not a bug or an oversight on Amazon's part; it was a conscious act.

The Kindle is allowed to read/display un-DRM'd mobi files. These ain't them

The usage of these transformed files is as such, a violation of these Terms in both spirit and letter.

Also, because the DMCA is such a shoddy law, it runs afoul of this too, and here is why.

It has language that forbids not just decryption, but circumvention of a drm system in and of itself. This tools facilitates unauthorized use of unauthorized content.

"Fair use" has nothing to do with it. Many people figured out awhile ago to allow people to actually exercise their fair use rights, in the face of the DMCA they have to violate the law.

That's what makes it so funny in an "uncomfortable laugh" kind of way: you'd be NOT violating the Amazon and Kindle TOS if you actually stripped the drm and made the things straight .mobi, as the Kindle has no restrictions on these.

Of course, doing that, you violate the TOS of whomever you bought it from, and the law. *NOICE* *SHWEET*

Welcome to a new kind of dumb

I will call up Amazon tomorrow and ask them what they think

Last edited by mrkai; 12-13-2007 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 12-13-2007, 04:19 AM   #36
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Thanks for the details, mrkai. I don't agree though when you say "Fair use" has nothing to do with it. According to Wikipedia:

Quote:
In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include--

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
Now apply these four factors to a situation where you legally purchase a book from Mobipocket or Fictionwise using the PID of your own Kindle device.

Sure if a user agrees on Amazon terms (which are to be questioned too), this agreement may take precedence over fair use rights.

Also, it may be questioned whether Amazon even has the right to control how I use the Kindle, given that I bought the device (I didn't rent it nor do I have a subscription plan with Amazon) -- legally, it's my own device! Nobody can sue me when I use it as a brick for the roof of my house; nor do I believe could anyone sue me if I put legal content on it, though content that was not sanctioned by Amazon.
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:00 AM   #37
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This is exactly why the whole issue is a New Kind of Stupid

BTW, *never* quote the Wikipedia as an authoritative source on anything

That said, people that use this tool are drawing a line in the sand of legal/moral/ethical digital content.

Many people like to say how cut and dry it all is...The Law is The Law....Ethics...Respect...you name it. I have read many threads that I haven't even bothered to respond to because many of those that post "know right from wrong" even when such things are more like "which right is wrong today"?

If you want to take your Kindle and beat it to bits, that's fine. if you want to use it as a cake platter, hurrah for you. I won't get into the really nasty and gross things you are perfectly allowed to do with your Kindle.

The thing is you own the plastic and the fiddly bits. The stuff that makes it go...you aren't allowed to diddle with because it doesn't belong to you.

if you want to read DRM'd content on it that Amazon doesn't sell and do an end-run around this, then you are hard-bitten criminal scum, a godless immoral hedonist, a hood, a crook, a liar or a thief with no honor or decency. And you are robbing Amazon of potential revenue by NOT buying a Kindle authorized copy/version of the book for use on the Kindle.

Nice, huh?

Last edited by mrkai; 12-13-2007 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:01 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkai View Post
Alright. First there is: Use of Digital Content.

You are not allowed to use any Digital Content not authorized by Amazon on the device:

Notice that in the Digital Store/Kindle Store section that Amazon get to pick how this is defined..."from time to time.
However, "Digital Content" referred to in the TOS remains restricted to what is available from the Kindle Store and, yes, they are saying they may change what sort of content they offer in the Kindle Store from time to time and you may not use content from the Kindle Store if not authorized to do so. Unless they change the TOS, the current one does not apply to "digital content" not sold from the Kindle Store (because that's how they defined it).
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:18 AM   #39
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Uh-huh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zartemis View Post
However, "Digital Content" referred to in the TOS remains restricted to what is available from the Kindle Store and, yes, they are saying they may change what sort of content they offer in the Kindle Store from time to time and you may not use content from the Kindle Store if not authorized to do so. Unless they change the TOS, the current one does not apply to "digital content" not sold from the Kindle Store (because that's how they defined it).
So you ARE allowed to use DRM'd .mobi books from other vendors, then?

We'll see. Like I said, I'm calling Amazon Legal in Seattle in the AM when I get up.

I think tho, it is pretty clear. DRM'd content for the Kindle is in Amazon's format. No one else is authorized to license content in this format. No one else is licensed to create this format. Amazon doesn't even supply tools to make this format on the desktop for Amazon customers...do they?

No one outside of Amazon and its authorized agents (who are they?) have any rights or licenses regarding Amazon's file format whatsoever.

Its all about the implicit and explicit (yet again) and um, the Amazon format and its decryption is a part of The Software, the Service and the Device.

The only (heheh) legal way I am aware of to get an AWZ file of any kind is from Amazon with or without DRM.

So...what are you saying? Its your right to use unlicensed software for a format that Amazon doesn't even provide a desktop executable tool for...because you bought some entirely different thing from somebody else?!?!

This is preposterous!! Scandalous!! A blight upon mankind and a smack in the face of all that is Good and Right!!!
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:06 AM   #40
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Not true. Fictionwise is selling the Kindle format as well.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:10 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rixte View Post
Not true. Fictionwise is selling the Kindle format as well.
But only content that isn't DRM protected:

Quote:
Why Doesn't Fictionwise Sell All Titles for Kindle?
We would love to, but Amazon.com makes it impossible for any other eBook retailer to sell big-publisher eBooks that require DRM encryption for Kindle. Oddly, this even includes another major eBook retailer that is owned by Amazon themselves!

We suggest you open a support ticket at Amazon.com asking them to change this policy. They could very easily allow other retailers like Fictionwise to sell Secure Mobipocket titles onto the Kindle device. Amazon.com allows other print-book merchants to sell through Amazon's site, so why shouldn't they allow other merchants to sell eBooks onto Kindle?
Obviously they've stumbled over the same issues with the TOS as we did in this discussion.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:14 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azog View Post
Hmph, if the PID is generated from the serial number, I don't see a way for them to "fix" this, without also breaking access to our "legit" Kindle purchases. It's interesting. I wonder if he can do the reverse, de-Kindle an AZW file I've purchased from Amazon. That would allow me to read all my content on my Gen3!
From Amazon's viewpoint, though, that's the beauty of the connected Kindle. It's likely that, if they change the PID calculation algorithm, they can simply force-feed new downloads and replace every book with the new scheme. The bandwidth would cost them, but they would likely consider it worth it.
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:00 AM   #43
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Does Amazon have another TOS for the email service?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TadW View Post
But only content that isn't DRM protected:

Obviously they've stumbled over the same issues with the TOS as we did in this discussion.
As its kind of obvious what fictionwise is doing here. They are sending files for conversion, having Amazon send them back, then publishing those as there is no licensed tool to create AZW files available DRM'd or otherwise.

I'm going to assume there isn't a "no redistribution" clause in the Terms of the email conversion service. Is this outlined in the Kindle manual somewhere?
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:29 AM   #44
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This is absolutely brilliant, igorsk - well done! It gives owners of previous-purchased Mobi books a way to read their content on the Kindle, which can only benefit Kindle sales. It may be a technical breach of the Kindle TOS to do so, but Amazon would have to be crazy to object to it.

This tool is definitely NOT illegal in any way, shape, or form. Well done again!
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:16 AM   #45
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Not "illegal" because you agree...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
This is absolutely brilliant, igorsk - well done! It gives owners of previous-purchased Mobi books a way to read their content on the Kindle, which can only benefit Kindle sales. It may be a technical breach of the Kindle TOS to do so, but Amazon would have to be crazy to object to it.

This tool is definitely NOT illegal in any way, shape, or form. Well done again!
...with its use?

What a bunch of hypocrites around here!

By sanctioning the use of this tool you are advocating circumvention of the Amazon Kindle system, causing them to lose potential revenue on lost sales via the Kindle store, sales that support the infrastructure of the system. You are "stealing" from Amazon and the Kindle Store! A mobi copy of a book and an AWZ copy of a book are *not the same*...just like an mp3 and a cd aren't the "same"...or a paperback and the hardback aren't the "same"...

Huh?!

Furthermore the tool is a result of reverse engineering, something forbidden to do or assists in ANY WAY in the Kindle TOS.

It doesn't matter if you can "justify" it...it's "wrong" to do.

Its OK to violate a covenant that you expressly agree to with your purchase and use and its explicit and implied restrictions because "you feel like it" now?

Blurring that "right and wrong" line a bit now, aren't we?

I know there isn't a DMCA in the UK, but here we have you advocating unlicensed software, circumvention of a DRM system (which is forbidden by the DMCA...its NOT JUST DECRYPTION and has nothing to do with SHARING. That's why is so BAD!) making unlicensed copies of a digital purchase...sheesh.

But is OK because somebody *besides* Amazon gets paid?!?! Its OK because "no one is doing anything morally wrong" even tho they run shy of a license AND a (horribly bad) law?

What...the...hell.
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