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View Poll Results: Ebook piracy and your thoughts
Who takes e-books for free, actually work for a living? 10 45.45%
Who works for a living believe they deserve every penny of what they get? 8 36.36%
Would you work for free if you won't be paid? 9 40.91%
Should strangers dictate author's wages? 13 59.09%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-12-2007, 09:59 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by rixte View Post
This doesn't make sense to me. Yes, it could be a reason for canceling the publishing contract if Brust himself was doing it, but I don't see how a publisher could use the actions of a 3rd party to break Brust's contract.
Depending on the contract, any change in the saleability of a product, whether it was created by Brust or not, could be considered reason to break a contract. If the publisher suspects that Brust's actions (or inaction) caused a "breach of security" related to the book, the publisher could exercise whatever loopholes they likely built into the contract to sever the connection.

Mind you, that's an extreme case... but it is a possibility.

Contract royalties and renewals can also be contingent upon sales, and if illegal e-books are perceived to be hurting sales, a contract can simply not be renewed due to lack of profitability for the publisher.

Of course, contracts aren't always this mercenary... but it's not unheard of.
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:19 AM   #32
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So Jon, do you walk or take a lunch?

(It makes as much sense as the poll questions.)
yes I walk. And in the summer I sometimes do take lunch.
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Old 12-12-2007, 01:53 PM   #33
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1- I doubt Brust's publisher is interested in severing his contract. His last book made a bestseller list. He's still actively producing. He's making them money.

2 - He's not giving away ebooks. He's not encouraging his fans to give away ebooks. He apparently would like for there to be legal ebooks available but has no idea how to go about it, and his agent (for reasons I won't go into) hasn't weighed in on this issue. But I think it highly unlikely that anyone will be able to support a claim that ebooks have negatively impacted his sales.

My point in bringing this up was simply to demonstrate that the issue of ebook filesharing is not black and white, though it can be tempting to polarize arguments.

I believe that ebooks have real value. Their value is equal to the content of the book, plus the convenience factors associated with portability, searchability, etc., possibly minus the inconvenience of proprietary formats and/or DRM. I believe that authors should be compensated for the value of the content, and publishers should be compensated for the value of editing, marketing, and production. I honestly think most book fans feel that way. And if many people feel that the incremental value of an ebook compared to a pbook of the same content is not very large, and may even be negative if the ebook is locked down too tightly, that's not the same at all as saying the ebook has no value.

Steve, for your books in particular, which are not available in paper, there is no competing value, and no lessening of value due to poor formats or DRM. I wouldn't even consider downloading an illegal copy of one of your books. And I think the vast majority of readers feel the same way. I think you can afford to ignore the wackos who are talking about the inevitable doom of the ebook publishing industry. They aren't talking about you. Your books are reasonably priced and formatted for the convenience of your customers. And I don't think you need to defend the practices of publishers who can't bring themselves to trust their customers. They will eventually figure out how to get along in the electronic market, or they'll fold and other publishers who can figure it out (like Baen) will take over. And eventually no one will need to talk about the legality or morality of format shifting, because all the books still covered by copyright will have been available as flexible format ebooks from the time we wanted to purchase them in the first place.

(Ok, and there will be a chicken in every pot, and the stars will shine and the birds will sing... accuse me of irrational optimism if you will, but long term, I think this is how things will go. I just expect a few bumps on the road getting there.)
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Old 12-12-2007, 02:20 PM   #34
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Yes, it would be nice if that's the way things worked out. (I'll take the chicken, too!) And I think the developments in digital music are finally beginning to show a way for everyone else that works.

However, even among people on this forum who buy e-books, there still seems to be an opinion among many that an e-book is essentially worthless, specifically because of the extremely low (virtually zero) cost of producing them, the essentially "invisible" nature of an electronic file, and despite what work the author put into writing it.

This idea disturbs me greatly, more than any other idea presented here. The opinion that an e-book is, for all intents and purposes, "insubstantial," threatens to lessen the value of e-books in any form or concept, and that will only hurt the market and its potential over time. I believe the value of e-books to disseminate information farther, faster, cheaper, at less environmental impact and beyond physical boundaries, is great. Applying to them a value of zero will only hurt their ability to be recognized as legitimate.
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Old 12-12-2007, 02:59 PM   #35
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This idea disturbs me greatly, more than any other idea presented here. The opinion that an e-book is, for all intents and purposes, "insubstantial," threatens to lessen the value of e-books in any form or concept,
Why? As I see it you pay for being able to and having the right to read the book and the actual medium is nearly worthless if it is in electronic form or is a paperback.

Last edited by tompe; 12-12-2007 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 12-12-2007, 03:25 PM   #36
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Why? As I see it you pay for being able to and having the ritht to read the book and the actual medium is nearly worthless if it is in electronic form or is a paperback.
But it's been clear in the past few days that not everyone shares that viewpoint. Many posters here seem to equate "e-books" with "free content," and seem to think that's morally okay, apparently, because it is so easy to get them from illegal sites and not get caught.

(Admittedly, some of them had more questionable morals than that, suggesting that if they had paid for and obtained a hardback book, they'd feel justified in taking a paperback for free later. You never can tell.)
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Old 12-12-2007, 06:30 PM   #37
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Most people will commit a minor crime if they think they will get away with it.

Speeding!
wrong? of course. does almost everyone do it? yes

Lending someone a tape/dvd or a tv program their friend missed!
Wrong?of course. does everyone do it? yes

making a mix CD form your favourite album tracks!
Wrong? of course. Does everyone do it? yes

Its all about drawing a line... problem is its a giant sized football pitch wide fuzzy grey line.

downloading an Ebook thats not available commercially if you owned the paperback?

downloading an Ebook that wasnt available commercially if you didnt own a 'hard' copy?

downloading an Ebook that is commercially available if you didnt own a 'hard' copy?

Ive done some of all the things listed above... Heres my Poll:-

Can anyone honestly say they have never done ANY of the things listed in this post?

Yes

or

No
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:02 PM   #38
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Can anyone honestly say they have never done ANY of the things listed in this post?

Yes

or

No
Are you including e-books that are in public domain? If so: Yes.

If you are only referring to e-books that are illegally obtained and offered for free: No.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:46 PM   #39
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My point is, Steve, I think most people here (I would even go so far as to say "the vast majority") do think that ebooks have intrinsic value. Yes, there are those who feel that if they already own the content legitimately in a paper form, they have few if any reservations about acquiring a scanned copy from elsewhere. But these are people who still feel it is important to compensate the author. After all, they bought the book in the first place. And it's a problem of the transition from paper to digital, not a permanent problem.

The opinion I don't care for much is the one that says "piracy is rampant, you can't stop it, nor should you-- content should just be free now that it costs nearly nothing to make copies." But I think that's a very minority opinion, here and elsewhere. Most people are mature enough understand that even if copies are nearly free to make, original content creation (and editing, formatting, marketing, etc.) is not, and needs to be compensated. Some of us worry about how this is going to happen, so we toss around ideas like embedded advertising, social DRM, etc. But I think taking a few of the worst extremist comments in this forum and extrapolating a widespread disrespect for authorship is probably borrowing anxiety unnecessarily. I just hate to see you stressing out over what I think is a very minority opinion.
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:09 PM   #40
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I just hate to see you stressing out over what I think is a very minority opinion.
You know, you're right: For whatever reason, I have been stressing out over this, letting others push my buttons, and it probably is unnecessary. I can't even say why I was so stressed over it, other than the fact that I suppose I just couldn't understand how some people in these threads could possibly feel the way they do.

Anyway, today I'm on a much more even keel than I was a few days ago (thank goodness... I was about ready to throw out all my Karma and start from zero!). And I do feel bad about about flying off the handle at some of the people here. Maybe not every single one of them... but anyway...

It just goes to show how touchy a subject this can be, I guess, made worse by the fact that it's so vaguely defined, applied and enforced.
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:18 AM   #41
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nekokami

Well said in the last two posts.

I, myself, believe that ebook has as much value as a paper back book as long as it is not locked down. Definitely, the author should be compensated.

I have a dilemma now.

I would like to read The Urth? I, the New Sun 5 book series.
I wanted to buy them ....cannot. Ebooks do not exist.
I have the first volume (2 books in one volume) in the series. I bought it 1 years ago.

On the darknet I could download all of them.

What shell I do?

Reading a paper book - out of question.

So, there are 2 ways as far as I can see.

1. Forget about it for a few years and hope that one day the publishers will have a mercy and publish ebooks or maybe they will not? or maybe when they do it the writer will no longer be alive? In this case there is a chance that the writer will never see my money...

2. I could buy the rest of the series in paper back editions. Then download ebooks from darknet. Edit them accordingly and read them. In this case, writer will be compensated for his work, because I will buy 2 more books while the writer is alive, not in some unpredictable future. (In this case the publishers will get my money too!)

What should I do?

Last edited by astra; 12-13-2007 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:22 AM   #42
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Theft = Speeding? Get real.
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:39 AM   #43
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Lending someone a tape/dvd or a tv program their friend missed!
Wrong?of course. does everyone do it? yes

making a mix CD form your favourite album tracks!
Wrong? of course. Does everyone do it? yes
There is nothing "of course" about these being wrong. Legally it seems to depend on where you live if it is legal or not. And if it is legal I do not see how it can be obvious that it is morally wrong.
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Old 12-13-2007, 06:47 AM   #44
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eBooks, unlike pBooks, could be made unique for every download (e.g. subtle changes in punctuation, or certain words).
Unlike music downloads, such alterations in eBooks needn't detract from the enjoyment of the product.
If an illicit eBook turned up on the net, it could be traced back to the original purchaser. They could be asked why it happened, or blacklisted as a future customer; or investigated more thoroughly for other possible infringements.
This wouldn't stop piracy, but it might be a deterrant as each book would need to be 'cracked' separately - unlike a universal crack for a DRM implementation. The work involved would probably be more trouble than it's worth to a lot of 'pirates'.
Just an idea - a dumb one probably - but an idea nonetheless .
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:13 AM   #45
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Just an idea - a dumb one probably - but an idea nonetheless .
Okay, just to establish that I'm not just challenging everything:

Although I wouldn't go so far as to change the text of a book for every downloader... if the intent is to make each e-book unique, you can work out a way to embed the purchaser's name in the book, say, in the dedication section (Thank you for buying this book, Sparrow!).

You'd need a server capable of generating the e-book on the fly once purchase was made, but that's very do-able.
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