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Old 03-08-2012, 05:43 PM   #16
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I have a question that someone may be able to answer here. I've tested converting an ePub to Mobi using both Calibre and the new Kindle Previewer. The problem I found is that using the Previewer, it converts basically perfectly, styles and all...but with the latest Calibre it still seemed to align right on every paragraph, as Mobi's have apparently always done.
No problem, I'm sure that will all be fixed soon enough since Calibre is the all around most useful tool I've seen so far (next to Sigil for what it does .

However, the Mobi file converted with the new Previewer (which I think uses the new KindleGen) is much larger than the original ePub (5mb larger). I've been told it's because Mobi keeps the original in there when it does the conversion, which wouldn't be a problem except that Amazon charges you per-MB and that can add up on a big book. I heard about Kindlestrip possibly removing the excess original material, but I'm not sure it will work since Amazon's new K8 format seems to be a new issue for all these programs.

So, does anyone know if it's possible to remove the junk from a converted Mobi file and reduce the size so it's in-line with the original ePub size (or less if Mobi crunches images as I hear it does?) Does removing it damage it's usability in some way I won't want?

And, is there any word on when Calibre might convert like the new Previewer does, keeping the styles intact? (If it left out the excess baggage..that would be sweet too)

Thanks,
JT
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jttraverse
However, the Mobi file converted with the new Previewer (which I think uses the new KindleGen) is much larger than the original ePub (5mb larger). I've been told it's because Mobi keeps the original in there when it does the conversion, which wouldn't be a problem except that Amazon charges you per-MB and that can add up on a big book. I heard about Kindlestrip possibly removing the excess original material, but I'm not sure it will work since Amazon's new K8 format seems to be a new issue for all these programs.

So, does anyone know if it's possible to remove the junk from a converted Mobi file and reduce the size so it's in-line with the original ePub size (or less if Mobi crunches images as I hear it does?) Does removing it damage it's usability in some way I won't want?
The output of kindlegen 2 is quite large. Mostly because (as you said) it's a combination MOBI/KF8 file. But also because the original source ePub is included as well. I believe the newest version of kindlestrip can strip out the source files of the new format—and other scripts can even be used to split it into two stand-alone ebooks (the older standard MOBI and the newer KF8), but I would hesitate before doing that to files I intended to upload to Amazon (I wouldn't hesitate to strip the source files). The reason being: Amazon strips the source and splits the original file so that it can send the proper file-type to the various devices (depending on what they can handle). They never send that whole great-big file to anyone. Only the piece they need.

If you were to strip out the old mobi format before uploading to Amazon, then only those with Kindle Fires (or the newest apps) would be able to read your book. The new format won't work on the older eInk Kindle devices (so far).
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:19 PM   #18
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Hi,

There are standalone python 2.7 tools that do what you want available in the Mobi forum here at Mobileread.

Grab the latest Mobi_Unpack_v045.zip from here:

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...&postcount=297

It will allow you to split your Kindlegen output into mobi7 (original mobi) and mobi8 (KF8) pieces, as well as convert the KF8 piece to be an epub that should look exactly like what your Kindle Previewer shows you.

It may be easier to simply install the latest mobi_unpack_plugin. See the Calibre plugin thread for the latest version link.

To remove the extra source archive get kindlestrip_v133.py that understands mobi file produced by the latest Kindlegen:

http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...0&postcount=36
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovidgoyal View Post
I am never going to use a binary blob like kindlegen for conversion:

1. It only supports 3 platforms, calibre runs on BSDs and ARM as well
2. I have no way of knowing exactly what kindlegen does
3. I have no way of fixing bugs in kindlegen

Producing KF8 doesn't seem to be insuperably difficult, I'll get to it eventually.
My suggestion was to employ a plugin that uses kindlegen as an interim approach, until you can swat that format like the pesky bug that it is. I agree that (1) means it is not a general solution, but (2) and (3) are just NIH. It's pretty obvious that (a) calibre uses ePub as a common-denominator type of format, and (b) mobi, as a proprietary format owned by Amazon, will be continually changing. Taking a software engineering approach to supporting Amazon devices would seem to make more sense than continually running to reverse engineer what they are doing and playing catchup. Kindlegen turns ePub into amazon mobi, so why duplicate it? I realize there may be platform and license questions, but the flip dismissal (by theducks) of the concept because kindlegen is not open source is silly. Does calibre run on windows? Does calibre use any windows functions? Do you know what windows does? Can you fix bugs in windows? Is windows open source? Why doesn't calibre ship with it's own open source operating system? I'm being facetious of course, but you probably see the point I'm making.
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:32 PM   #20
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I took Kovid's response to mean that he, himself, is not interested in working on a solution that involves third-party, proprietary binaries. And will not exert any effort on that front. Nor will something like that be included in calibre's official distribution. I get that. That's not what calibre is about.

That certainly doesn't stop someone from writing a third-party plugin that allows the user to supply the location of their local copy of kindlegen to build KF8's from ebooks in their calibre library... if only until an official calibre solution exists.

There need be no dissension here.

Last edited by DiapDealer; 03-08-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 03-08-2012, 11:04 PM   #21
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@nickredding: The difference between windows and kindlegen is that while the user *already* has windows, she may not already have kindlegen. In other words, calibre does not distribute an operating system of any kind open or closed source. When a user downloads calibre they are guaranteed that every part of calibre *itself* is open source. That little fact allows me, for instance, to make claims like this: http://manual.calibre-ebook.com/faq....a-virus-trojan. You may well be comfortable with using binary blobs for your software, not everyone else is, and I suggest you not dismiss their concerns out of hand. It is for this very reason that I refused to include the opencandy binary blob into the calibre installer, despite the fact that it might have increased my income from calibre.

To me one of the coolest things about calibre is how quickly bugs in the conversion engine are fixed, when they can be fixed. Relying on kindlegen means I would be forcibly reduced to depending on Amazon, and given the utter lack of quality in their ebook software division (something you as someone who has worked on MOBI can attest to) that is no small thing.

Finally, my main motivation in writing calibre is to prevent the ebook ecosystem from relying on corporate entities and closed source software. In other words, one of my goals is to make knowledge of ebook formats available in the public domain. To me, reading and ebooks are important enough for that to be essential.

Last edited by kovidgoyal; 03-08-2012 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 03-08-2012, 11:43 PM   #22
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stripping before and after...but what gets charged?

I'll understand if no one has a definite answer for this, but so far I'm at least getting great helpful answers. So, if a Mobi file has both original and K8 formats in it, and if from that Amazon only sends the customer the right format portion based on which Kindle the customer has, I'd love to know if the publisher/author gets charged the transfer fee based only on the size the customer downloads, or the whole original size.

If the whole file is 15mb (because it's packed with 2-3 different content formats so Amazon can strip it apart and send one of them to the customer) I'd hope they don't charge the author for transfering the whole file size everytime if a customer really only downloads a portion, not the whole 15mb.

Anyone know?
Thanks,
JT
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Old 03-09-2012, 03:39 PM   #23
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KindleStrip > an amazing script...

Partly to answer my own question above, I've just now run the recent Kindlestrip python script against my huge Mobi file, stripping out the original ePub. Holy @#$!! what a difference. I have to say this is a sweet and simple little script, and it reduced the original 14.5mb Mobi file down to under 5mb.

For those who care, that amounts to a savings of $1.50 per book if Amazon charges the 'transfer fee' based on a file uploaded to them and left at the original 'Previewer' converted size. Serious money to say the least.
On another point, which is significant to me, if anyone happened to get the original Mobi file, they'd be able to strip out the ePub and have that format as well...basically for free. Stripping it out is to the author's advantage I suppose. Amazon may strip it out, I don't know, but it made me wonder whether having all versions in there is done for other reasons. Maybe they want access to the ePub to offer that in the future.

So, I want to say a big thank you to Kovid, DiapDealer, and definitely KevinH for all the help. My vote would be to incorporate the script into Calibre somehow since it would definitely make Calibre valuable not only for what it already is, but the potential cost savings described above.

(Last thing: I noticed in testing with the new Kindle Previewer, that output looks great in the Fire preview, but apparently all other 'devices' still present the old (K7?) version, even the Kindle for iPad--no blockquotes, all right aligned, etc. That was disappointing since I might have hoped Amazon would let things look as good on the iPad as the do on the Fire...but maybe they have a different agenda.)

A big thanks you to all you guys.
-JTT
btw, I'm starting a small publishing biz, for reasons more than just my own book. I think I'll write an article on what I've learned, and I'll definitely speak highly of Calibre and all of you.
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Old 03-10-2012, 03:53 AM   #24
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A lot to digest.... tossing my few cents back in the pot

I'd like to thank everyone for looking at this so thoroughly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jttraverse View Post
Partly to answer my own question above, I've just now run the recent Kindlestrip python script against my huge Mobi file, stripping out the original ePub. Holy @#$!! what a difference. I have to say this is a sweet and simple little script, and it reduced the original 14.5mb Mobi file down to under 5mb.
I am neither a tech person or a math person, but these are the numbers I had:

The ePub file I started with was 819.3kb

I ran it through kindlegen and it came out 2.2 a MB mobi that I uploaded to KDP.

KDP processed it, accepted it and allowed me to download it to preview, and it was now 1.4 MB

I don't have a Kindle Fire so I haven't been able to test it.

As I understand it (but bear in mind I'm a noob self publisher, so I may well be wrong) the new kindle gen mobi files are designed to work on all Kindles. Since old Kindles and New Kindles are not compatible, I think this new container mobi included both an old fashioned mobi that works on older models, and the kf8 that works on kindle fire.

Presumably when I uploaded the kindle genned version Amazon's processing compressed the thing. I would think when someone buys a kindle eBook they would want it to work, no matter which Kindle device they have. I would be worried that stripping out a version would mean that it might not work on one or the other.
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:00 AM   #25
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Quote:
Presumably when I uploaded the kindle genned version Amazon's processing compressed the thing. I would think when someone buys a kindle eBook they would want it to work, no matter which Kindle device they have. I would be worried that stripping out a version would mean that it might not work on one or the other.
Amazon is only sending you the portion that your device can/will support. Fires (and some apps) are getting the KF8 version... all others are getting the older mobi version. Nobody's getting the entire master/combo version of the file delivered to them. Hence the size differences.

People have been stripping the source portion of the kindlegen output before uploading to Amazon for a long time with no adverse effects, but like you mentioned... I wouldn't suggest stripping out one format or the other before uploading. You may be limiting someone's ability to view your book that way (it would be different if you wanted to distribute your ebook on your own, and are only concerned with one format or the other).
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Old 03-10-2012, 11:15 AM   #26
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FYI: calibre's next release will be able to read KF8 both the standalone version and the combined into a single mobi file version. Thanks due to KevinH for the code on which this is based.

http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kovid/c...revision/11644
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:01 PM   #27
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Quote:
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FYI: calibre's next release will be able to read KF8 both the standalone version and the combined into a single mobi file version. Thanks due to KevinH for the code on which this is based.

http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kovid/c...revision/11644
Excellent, Kovid. That's a release I'll certainly be installing.

Any thoughts on when Calibre might have a version that can convert TO KF8? I realize that this is both a bigger task, and one that is less critical.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:27 PM   #28
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Not anytime soon, unless someone else tackles it, I have a rather full inbox. The only reason KF8 read support was added so quickly was because KevinH sent me code I could adapt for it.
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:19 PM   #29
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Understood. Well, maybe KevinH will be motivated. IAC, I very much appreciate what we've got, and thanks to KevinH for his work.
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Old 03-11-2012, 02:17 PM   #30
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Hi,

I will take a look at this but no promises. Basically, KF8 is just a joined and reformatted epub. The problem is generating the skel, div, and other indexes and if necessary the DATP sections.

It seems all KF8's come with DATP sections which may or may not be required. AFAIK, no one has reversed the DATP (they are not required for original mobi except I think for mobi dictionaries). I do not have code that actually writes or reads DATP section contents, nor do I have code that writes indexes other than ncx indexes.

Also the right way to deal with all of the restructuring of the html is probably to use the lxml.etree code, but I am not familiar with it at all. I always resort to using regular expressions but moving and extracting tags and tag contents and adding aid= "" attributes just with regular expressions would be a pain.

So don't hold your breath ...

if (and this is a big if) I can figure out how to use the lxml.etree code, and if there is code inside calibre to write ctoc, tag maps, and INDX indexes and if the DATP sections are not required, then I can probably get something working.

If DATP sections are required, I simply do not have the free time to reverse engineer them.

KevinH
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