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Old 02-20-2012, 04:02 PM   #46
Jaden
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post
Maybe the solution is not no DRM , but BETTER DRM. After all, we don't give up on speeding laws, because there is frequently arbitrary and uneven enforcement of those laws or because it represents a restriction after we have spent our hard earned money to buy cars that can go much faster than the speed limit. Why how dare the government insist that we can only go 55 or 30 or 15 mph in certain areas and that those limits arbitrarily change over time! Why, the nerve....
It's more like selling cars that only work in the city you live in and will stop to work entirely if you decide to move to another town. And of course you are not allowed to sell the car even though you can't use it anymore, so all you can do is trash it and buy a new one.

There are laws against piracy and pirates and pirate sites can be prosecuted. That's what you can compare with speeding laws.

But DRM is not a law, so you can hardly compare it to one. It's a mechanism that criminalizes and annoys paying customers, much like forcing an anti piracy spot down your throat that you can't skip every time you watch the DVD you have paid for. Pirates will never get to see that spot, but you are punished for having paid for the DVD, stupid honest customer that you are.

Things like that make people turn to the darknet.
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:05 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post
Maybe the solution is not no DRM , but BETTER DRM.
No such thing. Or rather, there's no DRM system that's as good or better than no DRM from the users point of view.

Well, with the possible exception of social DRM. I would like a social DRM system that added a page to the front matter of any ebook I bought that included (nicely formatted, of course), my name, the on-line store I bought the book from, the date I bought the book, how much I paid for it, and a nice signature of the author or editor.

I would consider such a 'DRM' system to actually be better than no DRM.
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:11 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by pdurrant View Post
No such thing. Or rather, there's no DRM system that's as good or better than no DRM from the users point of view.

Well, with the possible exception of social DRM. I would like a social DRM system that added a page to the front matter of any ebook I bought that included (nicely formatted, of course), my name, the on-line store I bought the book from, the date I bought the book, how much I paid for it, and a nice signature of the author or editor.

I would consider such a 'DRM' system to actually be better than no DRM.
I wouldn't, but that's because I'm intensely concerned about the overreach of lawyers and I'm very much aware of how vulnerable my books are to anyone serious about pirating from me.

Social DRM concerns me because if someone uploads an "To: Ana Mardoll" book to a torrent, I can't prove it wasn't me.

Having said that, if it wasn't legal to prosecute based on watermarking, I think it'd be a nice, pretty feature. I'd probably go for that...

...except now I'm thinking how I wanted to replace all my stamped books after my divorce and name change because I didn't want to think about my ex every time I opened a book. Nevermind.
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:16 PM   #49
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Having said that, if it wasn't legal to prosecute based on watermarking, I think it'd be a nice, pretty feature. I'd probably go for that...
I've been wondering what would happen if I had watermarked books and someone stole my eReader (or other storing device) or someone hacked into my computer and stole the stuff and uploaded it somewhere. Would I be made responsible?
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:20 PM   #50
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I've been wondering what would happen if I had watermarked books and someone stole my eReader (or other storing device) or someone hacked into my computer and stole the stuff and uploaded it somewhere. Would I be made responsible?
No case law, and I'm not even a little bit confident, given how little most judges and juries know about modern technology. I mean, look at how many jail-breaking stuff (iPhone, Playstation) turns into ZOMG PIRACY!! circuses.

And someone wouldn't even have to hack YOU. How secure are the Amazon servers? B&N? Kobo? All those little book sellers? Dropbox -- where your books have to be public in order for you to download them remotely via Aldiko and the like? I wouldn't bet my future on it. Watermarked books make me very nervous. /paranoid
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:23 PM   #51
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I wouldn't, but that's because I'm intensely concerned about the overreach of lawyers and I'm very much aware of how vulnerable my books are to anyone serious about pirating from me.

Social DRM concerns me because if someone uploads an "To: Ana Mardoll" book to a torrent, I can't prove it wasn't me.
That's only a concern if the media companies are still doing the silly prosecutions, and even then I don't think a book of yours appearing in a torrent could actually have any legal consequences. The only people who've been convicted were sharing the music files directly from their home computer.

However, I do understand that not everyone would like it. If the companies were really clever they'd make it optional. "Check this box only if you don't want your personalised bookplate with author's signature included."

I have a splendid ebook by one of the authors here - "We Don't Plummet Out of the Sky Anymore" by M. David Blake. There's a personalised and numbered bookplate at the front. I love it.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:02 PM   #52
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That's only a concern if the media companies are still doing the silly prosecutions, and even then I don't think a book of yours appearing in a torrent could actually have any legal consequences. The only people who've been convicted were sharing the music files directly from their home computer.
Most of the new anti-piracy laws have been specifically written to presume guilt upon accusation. That isn't by mistake or incompetence, it is deliberate.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:39 PM   #53
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There's a graph here showing US recorded music sales from 1973 to 2009.

http://static6.businessinsider.com/i...c-industry.jpg

Sales tend to go up and down coinciding with economic recession, as you would probably guess, and while there was actually a very small dip in 1997that coincides with Napster, the total for that year still excedes the previous high peak in the mid-70s. There was then quite a sharp spike in sales for the next few years, before the current recession hit and sales slumped again.
Wow, that's a pretty steep decline.
Since, it's per capita I assumed they adjusted for inflation and population growth but if they didn't ... double wow.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:19 PM   #54
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Having a DRM free book is not the same as having a car with no speeding laws or limits.

I'm more afraid of someone who disregards speeding laws than I am of someone with a huge calibre library of DRM-free books that they bought for themselves.

I bought a few books from smashwords which COME drm free. What are people afraid of?
I would refer you to your DRM thread starting with post #107-et seq, especially #123-126.
One of the problems with this debate is that is really easy to see why we should put use restrictions on people who buy cars or guns, and so it is easy to point out the fallacy in the "I bought it, I should be able to do anything I want with it" argument.
Its a lot more difficult to see that without the proper protection of their IP rights, the best authors are simply just not going to write the books we love to read. You don't like being ripped off, and authors don't like it either ( and most can't afford it).
Now as I pointed out in post #109, DRM isn't perfect and could be better. Despite what you think, DRM has a purpose and it wasn't created just to annoy and inconvenience you.
BTW, if you know of another way to achieve that purpose -to prevent technologically unsophisticated consumers from freely sharing books across networks of families and friends- please post.
NO ONE on this forum -despite numerous condemnations of DRM - has ever come up with a satisfying alternative. Generally, they say authors should just suck it up and take their losses. Needless to say, authors -who have spouses and children to support like everybody else- won't go for that . (You wouldn't either).
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:23 PM   #55
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Most of us here on MR own lots of DRM-free books.
I have plenty of DRM-free books for which I have given the author my money.

I can understand LAWS for people who break the law. Having a DRM-free book is not breaking the law. Pirating is.

Having a maserati is not breaking the law. Going 150 in a 60 zone is. Yet most people are trusted to drive the car properly and assume responsibility if they don't.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:37 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
I've been wondering what would happen if I had watermarked books and someone stole my eReader (or other storing device) or someone hacked into my computer and stole the stuff and uploaded it somewhere. Would I be made responsible?
The point of course is that there are no perfect security measures that only inconvenience the guilty and NEVER, EVER inconvenience the innocent. Welcome to the real world.
It would be nice if we lived in a world where it was always butterflies and rainbows but in this world we have to make trade offs between convenience and security.
DRM is imperfect but the restrictions it imposes are not that great and indeed most people never encounter them. Whats your substitute for DRM?
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:47 PM   #57
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Most of us here on MR own lots of DRM-free books.
I have plenty of DRM-free books for which I have given the author my money.

I can understand LAWS for people who break the law. Having a DRM-free book is not breaking the law. Pirating is.

Having a maserati is not breaking the law. Going 150 in a 60 zone is. Yet most people are trusted to drive the car properly and assume responsibility if they don't.
Isn't that the point? IF you want to avoid DRM just buy DRM free books. Problem solved .
Of course, problem NOT solved. What you want is for the authors you want to read to offer their books DRM free. They don't want to do that, for the reasons they (and I ) consider quite valid .
This is a matter of not statutory, but contract, law. When you buy a DRMED book, you agree to abide by the terms and conitions of an agreement with the author, publisher and bookseller. I'm OK with keeping that agreement. Many here are OK with not keeping it.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:48 PM   #58
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There's a graph here showing US recorded music sales from 1973 to 2009.

http://static6.businessinsider.com/i...c-industry.jpg

Sales tend to go up and down coinciding with economic recession, as you would probably guess, and while there was actually a very small dip in 1997that coincides with Napster, the total for that year still excedes the previous high peak in the mid-70s. There was then quite a sharp spike in sales for the next few years, before the current recession hit and sales slumped again.

are there particular genres of music that have gone down or is it overall? i know metal heads are particularly rabid about buying and supporting bands. i read once that sales of metal albums stay pretty consistent no matter what the economy is like. i couldn't say the same for pop fans who only want 1 or 2 songs for a ringtone.

from my experience horror, science fiction and fantasy fans support their respective authors and books. most books i come across on pirate sites are the more ephemeral, ever-shifting bestsellers.

i guess my hypothesis is that "trendy" music and literature are probably far more susceptible to casual piracy and slumping sales by casual fans than true die hards of a particular genre.
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:58 PM   #59
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Isn't that the point? IF you want to avoid DRM just buy DRM free books. Problem solved .
Of course, problem NOT solved. What you want is for the authors you want to read to offer their books DRM free. They don't want to do that, for the reasons they (and I ) consider quite valid .
This is a matter of not statutory, but contract, law. When you buy a DRMED book, you agree to abide by the terms and conitions of an agreement with the author, publisher and bookseller. I'm OK with keeping that agreement. Many here are OK with not keeping it.
If I buy a car and read a law that says, "Do not speed", and therefore I don't speed even though I possess the power to, why is it so hard to trust someone who actually paid for a book with a book? (Disclosure, I have never had nor sought a drivers license so I know nothing about driving)

I am very cool with keeping the agreement to not copy and share the wazoo out of books I buy. Most people are. Most people walk by my house without picking the flowers in the garden too.... it's just what people do.

The reason so many people dislike DRM (and use tools to REMOVE DRM) is because of what DRM says to people who already have bought the thing. It's calling non-pirates pirates when they could have just gone and found one of the 500 uploaded copies on some site.

Naturally authors should get their money. That is why a person BUYS a book. My having DRM free books is not preventing authors from getting money.
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Old 02-20-2012, 07:06 PM   #60
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Here's where you should've added the bold. In the end, the only reason people will choose the fair and legal route will be because it's the easy way to go... not because it's fair and legal. (Or, to put another way, when the illegal way to go becomes harder, as in likely to get you in trouble and cost you something.)



Talk to Microsoft. Talk to Adobe. They have DRM systems that work just fine. Working DRM is not impossible. Just sayin'.
You need to start hanging out with a better class of people. Most of the people that I know prefer the fair and legal route. Most readers that I know wouldn't even begin to know how to go about searching the dark net for freebies. Those that I know who do pirate, tend to do so because originally, that was the only way to get the content they were looking for. There are, of course, a couple who pirate because they don't see any need to pay, but they are very much the exceptions. (and yes, I understand that there are some here who feel that way, but in my experience they tend to be the exception when it comes to consumers)

Which Adobe DRM product are you talking about? I know that the Adobe DRM for epub was cracked very quickly and easily.
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