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Old 02-25-2012, 02:31 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booxtor View Post
At first glance it looks like mechanical damage
I'm not familiar with the term "mechanical damage."

Can you clarify?
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:42 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by pidgeon92 View Post
I'm not familiar with the term "mechanical damage."

Can you clarify?
With mechanical damage I mean brocken screen (even a very small split causes pictures like that).

Last edited by Booxtor; 02-25-2012 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 02-25-2012, 07:47 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Booxtor View Post
At first glance it looks like mechanical damage of the screen in the lower left corner. I've forwarded your picture to the onyx experts . In any case you schould send your M92 back to our service center for inspection and screen replacement. If it is a mechanical damage, then thereplacement of the screen is not under warranty and must be paid. If there is not any mechanical damages on the device, then repairing will be covered by the warranty.
Hey Booxtor, as a person considering on ordering the upcoming black M92 from your store, I was wondering out of curiosity how much would said screen replacement exactly cost, for a cracked screen. Thx!
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:12 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booxtor View Post
At first glance it looks like mechanical damage of the screen in the lower left corner. I've forwarded your picture to the onyx experts . In any case you schould send your M92 back to our service center for inspection and screen replacement. If it is a mechanical damage, then thereplacement of the screen is not under warranty and must be paid. If there is not any mechanical damages on the device, then repairing will be covered by the warranty.
Hm, maybe I didn`t understand you correctly, but I hope that you are not saying that any mechanical malfunction is deprived of warranty?!
I agree that drooping, kicking, stumping or any other way of misuse should lead to mechanical failure that is not under warranty. But mechanical failure can be a result of fault in material, damaged component (from the factory) etc.
If my device will be deprived of warranty, I would expect some sort of evidence of mistreatment. I made additional photos of the device that show that there is no sign of impact or misuse.
http://tinyurl.com/83dhu3o

I apologize if I overreacted but your statement is not the same as what is written on the store website. Anyway, I will send you the device and hope for the best.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:31 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by focus View Post
Hm, maybe I didn`t understand you correctly, but I hope that you are not saying that any mechanical malfunction is deprived of warranty?!
I agree that drooping, kicking, stumping or any other way of misuse should lead to mechanical failure that is not under warranty. But mechanical failure can be a result of fault in material, damaged component (from the factory) etc.
If my device will be deprived of warranty, I would expect some sort of evidence of mistreatment. I made additional photos of the device that show that there is no sign of impact or misuse.
http://tinyurl.com/83dhu3o

I apologize if I overreacted but your statement is not the same as what is written on the store website. Anyway, I will send you the device and hope for the best.
You are right. If there is no evidence of misuse on the device, then it is a warranty case. This is why we have to inspect the device first. The pictures are not enough. Sorry, but We need to check the device in our lab.

Otherwise we can't take over the costs of the replacement of the screen . The screen is the most expensive part of the reader. The price of 9,7" Pearl screen alone is around $200 (aprox. 150€).
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booxtor View Post
You are right. If there is no evidence of misuse on the device, then it is a warranty case. This is why we have to inspect the device first. The pictures are not enough. Sorry, but We need to check the device in our lab.

Otherwise we can't take over the costs of the replacement of the screen . The screen is the most expensive part of the reader. The price of 9,7" Pearl screen alone is around $200 (aprox. 150€).
I can share the choice that I got with others since I really don`t know what to do.
So, the ereader-store.de refused to repair my device under warranty. They sent me pictures of the broken screen. You can see them in my gallery (last 3 photos) - http://tinyurl.com/83dhu3o
They policy is quite clear and can be seen in mail response:
"I am really sorry, but we are not able to investigate, what could cause the damage. We just can test, if it is an electronic fault or broken screen."

In my opinion, this doesn`t sound like the statement made in Booxtor post which is quoted above nor with the Terms and Conditions on ereader-store.de.
In any case, I can do little about that.

The choice I have is:
1) Pay another 200€ for repair and shipment (600€ overall cost of the device) and get back repaired device which I will be afraid to hold because it can break without any apparent reason

2) Say goodbye to it and to my 390€ (device+shipment to home+shipment back to ereader-store.de). Big price for 2(two) months of reading!

What would you do?
(did I mention that my salary isn`t much bigger then that?)

Write now I am really disappointed with ereader-store.de, Onyx and M92 and I am sorry that I ever bought it. I should have bought a tablet from my local store and at least have the opportunity to look the merchant in the face...
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:08 PM   #22
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Wow, I'm really excited to hear Booxtor's statement on that. I understand that they try to avoid the high cost of replacing the display under warranty. But if they are actually not able to determine the reason of the defect and they even admit that, it's undoubtedly their duty to replace the panel.

I'm wondering, why Booxtor doesn't send it in to Onyx directly, if he doesn't feel enabled to decide whether or not this should be handled under warranty. From my understanding he should get a refund for the replaced display from Onyx, since their device comes with warranty from the manufacturer afaik...

Btw... "What would you do?" - I would definitely do the same you are doing now, write on this forum and make the mob complain mercilessly about the unfairness and the unfulfilled promises

Last edited by tuxor; 03-20-2012 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:19 PM   #23
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I am seriously considering getting a M92. After reading these posts, now I realize that the M92 screen is much more fragile than my Asus Transformer. I think I will just hold back for a while before making up my mind.
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Old 03-20-2012, 06:27 PM   #24
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I would definitely agree that any eink-reader out there is more fragile than an ASUS Transformer and of course especially those with bigger screens. But why do you draw this conclusion from this thread? There is one single user that has a broken screen and the screen obviously didn't even break from mechanical exposure, but more likely from a production failure.
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:18 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxor View Post
Wow, I'm really excited to hear Booxtor's statement on that. I understand that they try to avoid the high cost of replacing the display under warranty. But if they are actually not able to determine the reason of the defect and they even admit that, it's undoubtedly their duty to replace the panel.

I'm wondering, why Booxtor doesn't send it in to Onyx directly, if he doesn't feel enabled to decide whether or not this should be handled under warranty. From my understanding he should get a refund for the replaced display from Onyx, since their device comes with warranty from the manufacturer afaik...

Btw... "What would you do?" - I would definitely do the same you are doing now, write on this forum and make the mob complain mercilessly about the unfairness and the unfulfilled promises

Hi,

here is the whole answer from ereader-store to the customer with brocken screen problem:

" Hi,

I am really sorry, but we are not able to investigate, what could cause the damage. We just can test, if it is an electronic fault or broken screen.

If the glass of the screen is broken it is obviously a kind of a sign of mistreatment. Fault in material is excluded, since the ereader has worked a quite long time (two months).

The warranty is given by manufacturer (not by seller) and the manufacturer will not accept (and also not believe) any excuses.

I am working quite long (three years now) with eInk devices and had to deal with many broken screens. In 90% of all cases customers claimed they didn't drop, hit or use any force on it. But I never heard, that a manufacturer treated a broken screen as warranty case.

You may not accept it, but there is no chance the manufacturer will take over the costs in case like yours.

Sorry again... "

It seem to be hard to accept, but we are not going to take over the costs for replacement of broken screens (caused during using by customer). We are doing good service, I think, but for some damages on our products we can not be made responsible. From many hundred sold devices we had to deal with 3 cases of broken screen only. Two first cases were caused by mistreatment of packages in postal services and we have replaced the devices immediately (even we could not make postal services responsible for that and had to take over complete costs). The last case was caused by customer. You must understand, glass is fragile and need to be handled quite carefully. Just imagine we would accept broken screens as warranty case, then we could stop our business right now.

In the case above the device has not been necessarily hit or dropped. Even if the cover was closed it is enough to press in the middle of the screen to cause splits in the screen fixation area. It could be anything - a dog/cat/baby jumped on the device, apple in the bag pressing against device etc. The customer may even not have noticed the source of the damage.

But it is still not excusable and not the reason make us responsible for it.
If the customer want, I can send the device to Onyx lab for further investigation.
I am pretty sure , they will have the same conclusion.

Last edited by Booxtor; 03-21-2012 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:42 AM   #26
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I understand the two positions now and see the dilemma. Two questions:

1. You say you had to deal with many broken screens in the last years and then later in your post you say, that out of hundreds of devices there were only 3 cases of broken screens. I guess you are talking only about M92 in the second sentence?

2. The other one for Onyx: how can they be so sure, that a broken screen is always caused by mistreatment? The displays might be extremely costly for a warranty case. But as you say, broken displays in M92 do not occur that often. When I had a display issue with my ThinkPad (and I had two cases of that kind), Lenovo replaced the display without argueing. And those displays are 200 dollars as well, even though my laptop is not even on the market any more and thus has no value that exceeds that of an M92 significantly. And by the way: I _really_ didn't mistreat my laptop. Okay, the laptop doesn't have a glass display. But that's not really the point...

@focus: If you actually _did_ mistreat your M92, be honest. Otherwise you ruin Onyx' and Booxtor's good reputation on purpose. That's not fair. By the way, on your photos there actually are some small scrapes (images 15, 23, 26, 28, 31, 32, 33, 39, 40, 41, 54, 55 of 58)..

Last edited by tuxor; 03-21-2012 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:19 AM   #27
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I understand the two positions now and see the dilemma. Two questions:

1. You say you had to deal with many broken screens in the last years and then later in your post you say, that out of hundreds of devices there were only 3 cases of broken screens. I guess you are talking only about M92 in the second sentence?

2. The other one for Onyx: how can they be so sure, that a broken screen is always caused by mistreatment? The displays might be extremely costly for a warranty case. But as you say, broken displays in M92 do not occur that often. When I had a display issue with my ThinkPad (and I had two cases of that kind), Lenovo replaced the display without argueing. And those displays are 200 dollars as well, even though my laptop is not even on the market any more and thus has no value that exceeds that of an M92 significantly. And by the way: I _really_ didn't mistreat my laptop. Okay, the laptop doesn't have a glass display. But that's not really the point...

@focus: If you actually _did_ mistreat your M92, be honest. Otherwise you ruin Onyx' and Booxtor's good reputation on purpose. That's not fair. By the way, on your photos there actually are some small scrapes..
1. We are selling ereaders since 2009 (former Pocketbook-Shop).
In this time we have sold about 20.000 devices. We had to deal with approximately 22-25 devices with broken screens. In most cases those were devices without covers or with soft covers. My experience is based on that time.

2. In the case of TFT/LCD - the warranty also covers any screen issues with electronic failure (mechanical damages are also excluded).

3. Regarding sincerity of the Customer (focus) - as I said, in the case above the device has not been necessarily hit or dropped. Even if the cover was closed it is enough to press in the middle of the screen to cause splits in the screen fixation area. It could be anything - a dog/cat/baby jumped on the device, apple in the bag pressing against device etc. The customer may even not have noticed the source of the damage.
So I believe him, if he claimed not to drop or use any force to the device on purpose. He could just not have noticed it But it does not change the problem
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Old 03-21-2012, 07:49 AM   #28
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I can't see from the pics, that the unit was somehow mistreated and Booxtor himself stated, that they can't say so.

In Germany/EU there is an important distinction beween "Garantie" and "Gewährleistung" (IIIC both are called "warranty" in english):
A new product bought from a commercial seller is under "Garantie". This implies the customer has the right that a defect is solved. If the seller does not want to solve the defect he has to proove the mistreatment of the unit. This is a very important aspect.

This changes when the Garantie - warranty period - has expired and the unit is under an extended voluntary period of "Gewährleistung" (i.e. important when buying a used car from a commercial seller). Then the customer must proove, that he did not mistreat the unit. Which is almost impossible and therefore "Gewährleistung" is almost useless if the seller is caliming the customer caused the defect.

EDIT:
It seems that in English the corresponding word for "Garantie" is guarantee and "Gewährleistung" is warranty.

Last edited by Defenderland; 03-21-2012 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:12 AM   #29
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Sorry, but your explanation of the terms Garantie and Gewährleistung is totally mixed up. Garantie is warranty from the manufacturer whereas Gewährleistung or Mängelhaftung is a warranty from the reseller. The first one, Garantie, is a voluntary service of the manufacturer. The latter one is legally compulsory in the European Union. In contracts of purchase between a commercial reseller and a private buyer (with most "small" goods) the Gewährleistung or Mängelhaftung (the warranty of the reseller) _must_ be assumed for two years. In the first six months of Gewährleistung burden of proof is on the reseller's side. In the second part of those two years it's the other way round.

Anyway, to me it also seems like there is a legal duty on Booxtor's side, that he has to replace the unit if he can't proof that focus broke the device - since Booxtor's shop falls under German law.

######### EDIT ###############
For German law, have a look here: http://dejure.org/gesetze/BGB/476.html and http://dejure.org/gesetze/BGB/437.html

This doesn't look good for Booxtor, because the following assumption is simply wrong:
Quote:
The warranty is given by manufacturer (not by seller) [...]
The only thing that might save him in this case, is this:
Quote:
If the glass of the screen is broken it is obviously a kind of a sign of mistreatment. Fault in material is excluded, since the ereader has worked a quite long time (two months)
But it's hard to tell, whether this will really convince a judge: Since the glass is not broken on the usually visible part of the screen, there is no reason why it should not already have been in a poor state when handed over to the buyer.

Last edited by tuxor; 03-21-2012 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:40 AM   #30
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I can't see from the pics, that the unit was somehow mistreated and Booxtor himself stated, that they can't say so.

In Germany/EU there is an important distinction beween "Garantie" and "Gewährleistung" (IIIC both are called "warranty" in english):
A new product bought from a commercial seller is under "Garantie". This implies the customer has the right that a defect is solved. If the seller does not want to solve the defect he has to proove the mistreatment of the unit. This is a very important aspect.

This changes when the Garantie - warranty period - has expired and the unit is under an extended voluntary period of "Gewährleistung" (i.e. important when buying a used car from a commercial seller). Then the customer must proove, that he did not mistreat the unit. Which is almost impossible and therefore "Gewährleistung" is almost useless if the seller is caliming the customer caused the defect.

EDIT:
It seems that in English the corresponding word for "Garantie" is guarantee and "Gewährleistung" is warranty.

If you want, just make an experiment. Take your ereader and press against the middle of the screen. Very soon it makes click-clack and you have same picture on your screen like above. The glass cracks. On fixation points (usually near to the boarder) you can sometimes see the split(s). The display looks then similar to what you can see on the pictures of Focus. You still wont be able to see any prooves of mistreated on device it self. But it is still not a reason for us to handle your device as warranty case. So please don't do that in real.


Here is our final statement to close the claim: broken screens are not covered by any kind of warranty / guaranty. You can ask any other manufacturer /seller of E-Ink devices, you will get same statement.
If you are not agree just avoid to buy a eink ereaders ....and not only.
As example - same thing is about products of Apple with glass screens - brocken screen of iPhone or iPad is never a reason to apply warranty. Can you prove the converse? I am just curious

Last edited by Booxtor; 03-21-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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