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Old 02-12-2012, 06:07 AM   #61
Toxaris
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I don't understand all this about the EULA. I always click on 'I Agree', because it doesn't matter what is in it. I don't know how it is in other countries, but here in the Netherlands the law ALWAYS goes above the EULA. So, if the law allows me to make a copy for personal usage (which it does), I can ignore the EULA for that.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:49 AM   #62
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EULAs mean about as much as the tags on matresses saying that it is illegal to remove them.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:54 AM   #63
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If this goes through would mean the end of the WORLD as we know it.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:55 AM   #64
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EULAs mean about as much as the tags on matresses saying that it is illegal to remove them.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:56 AM   #65
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If this goes through would mean the end of the WORLD as we know it.
If what goes through?
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:35 PM   #66
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You misunderstand me, I think. Yes, I'm well aware of this, and reasonable DRM (I consider Amazon's DRM to be reasonable) doesn't bother me in the slightest. Nor, I am convinced, does it bother the overwhelming majority of buyers. You buy a Kindle, you buy your books from Amazon, and if someone asks you if DRM bothers you, your answer is probably going to be "what's DRM?".

Until Amazon goes bankrupt. Then you are left with a useless pile of digital crap.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:25 PM   #67
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The thing about EULAs that I have always wondered about:

How can a EULA possibly be a binding contract if you haven't signed it?

Clicking to "yes, I agree" is hardly the same thing as signing an actual contract. Has this issue ever been resolved in a court?

And if it's not a binding contract, then it would seem that a digital purchase is merely a "sale," not a license.
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:21 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
"Sales will be low" is not the same as "there's no need to support this filetype."
I didn't say that there was no need to support the filetype. All scientific articles are pdf files, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. But we were talking about books.

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Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
The noncommercial uses for PDFs are huge (or at least, the use of unsellable PDFs), and the combination of that, and the few markets that won't work without them, will demand that devices support them unless something else with a fixed layout replaces PDF.
The graph was in reply to this:
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Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
"Unified ebook format" is a nice idea; it's not going to happen. I believe that ePub will eventually drive mobi out of the market--but PDF is here to stay. Some publications do well with reflowable formats (most novels, especially), but some really need fixed page layouts--children's books, art books, certain reference works. And PDF has a convenience far beyond its use for "books;" the ability to make consistently-printable business docs is going to keep it active.
You were talking pdf as a book format when you said that it's here to stay and I showed that the sales are going down.

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Originally Posted by rkomar View Post
I'm not exactly sure how to interpret that chart, but it looks like each category has its sales normalized to 100% over the last three years, and it's showing the relative changes per year within that category.
Based on the arguments of choosing pdf over any reflow format one would expect pdf to be the format of choice when it comes to digital books of the kind that O'Reilly has to offer. According to the graph they sold 10 times less pdf files in 2010 compared to 2008.
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:51 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by JeremyR
The big difference between books & music is that thanks to cds and cd-drives in computers, someone could easily and quickly make their own mp3 (or whatever format).

Music selling sites had to compete with that, cds.

While it's certainly possible to make a epub or mobi from a book, it's a lot more work than sticking a cd into the computer and clicking a few buttons.
^ This
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license...and it is no different with ebooks, you license it for the device you use.
And that's the point. A lot of us simply don't wont to license a copy of a book but buy one.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:06 PM   #70
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^ This

And that's the point. A lot of us simply don't wont to license a copy of a book but buy one.
Purely speculation on my part, but it's likely with ebooks that publishers would move to the pay per play model, as is done with movies - if they could get away with it.

Every time I opened a book I would be charged for reading it. Or maybe I could, in effect, purchase a subscription to, say, The Grapes of Wrath.

This isn't a prediction and I doubt it will happen. What I don't doubt is that publishers would be perfectly happy with this or a similar arrangement. Incrementally, it's the direction they're moving.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:25 PM   #71
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This article is remarkably fact-free and context free.

Quote:
Imagine buying a car that locks you into one brand of fuel. A new BMW, for example, that only runs on BMW gas.
Buying an ebook is like buying a car? Seriously? I would say there is practically no similarity between buying a BMW and an ebook. You might as well compare buying a pumpkin and buying a diamond.

Quote:
This could never happen, right? Consumers are too smart to buy into something like this. Or are they? After all, isn't that exactly what's happening in the ebook world?
Yep this is because consumers never faced different formats and platforms before when buying electronic devices. Except there have been differing formats and platforms since day one of the consumer electronics industry in the 19th century. When I was growing up , young whipper-snappers, there were 3 mutually incompatible platforms for playing prerecorded music-vinyl, cassette tape, and 8-track. The PC industry grew up amidst a proliferation of competing file formats and device platforms. In the end, the market sorts things out with one proprietary format becoming dominant . In the digital music market, the format that became dominant was MP3-which was not the best format, technically .

Quote:
EPUB would seem to be the answer. It's a popular format based on web standards, and it's developed and maintained by an organization that's focused on openness and broad industry adoption. It also happens to be the format used by seemingly every ebook vendor except the largest one: Amazon.
So why would EPUB be the answer if the market has made Amazon, with its MOBI format, the biggest bookseller? The writer doesn't doesn't answer it, really. Instead, the writer moves on to his real bete noire: that ol' demon DRM.

Quote:
Some publishers don't want to hear this, but the truth is that DRM can be hacked. It does not eliminate piracy. It not only fails as a piracy deterrent, but it also introduces restrictions that make ebooks less attractive than print books. We've all read a print book and passed it along to a friend. Good luck doing that with a DRM'd ebook! What publishers don't seem to understand is that DRM implies a lack of trust. All customers are considered thieves and must be treated accordingly.
This is a rehash of all the old anti DRM arguments. Those arguments don't address the real reason why publishers stick with DRM-that is an effective tool for limiting casual sharing of bestselling ebooks by technologically unsophisticated consumers. Since DRM protect sales and thus revenue that way, DRM makes good business sense-which is why publishers are going to continue with it . Indeed, whats interesting is that the words "copyright", "authors", and "infringement" don't appear in the article . Apparently, after DRM is gone, magic unicorns are going to protect the rights and incomes of popular authors and authors are going to keep writing out of pure love of art.

Quote:
Given all these issues, why not eliminate DRM and trust your customers? Even the music industry, the original casualty of the Napster phenomenon, has seen the light and moved on from DRM.
The music industry hasn't moved on. Its in steady decline , if anything. Revenues are down, profits are down, stock prices are down, new releases are down . Anyone who looks at the music industry and thinks of it as having "moved on" is delusional.
I think the key part of the article is buried here:

Quote:
You buy a dedicated ebook reader like a Kindle or a NOOK and you're locked in to that company's content.
The solution ? DON"T buy a dedicated ebook reader like a Kindle or Nook. Buy a tablet, buy a smartphone, buy an iPod touch. There are now plenty of hardware options that don't involve lock-in. It ain't 2007 anymore, folks.

Quote:
It would be too inconvenient to have part of my library in Amazon's Mobipocket format and the rest in EPUB. Even though I could read both on a tablet (e.g., the iPad), I'd be forced to switch between two different apps. The user interface between any two reading apps is similar but not identical, and searching across your entire library becomes a two-step process since there's no way to access all of your content within one app.
Whine, whine, whine. I've got my library spread across several ebook reader apps, and I have no problem accessing my books.They're all in one folder, "Books". If you're smart enough to operate a computer with several computer programs on it , you're smart enough to manage your library across different apps.
Bottom line? Let the market decide what, if any, format should be the one to rule them all. As to DRM, it will continue until some better scheme to protect the rights of content creators appears.

Last edited by stonetools; 02-12-2012 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:42 PM   #72
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If music revenues are down it is because we consumers now have the ability to buy our music per song and not be stuck buying a more expensive album for one or two songs surrounded by 8 other garbage pieces.

It might be a small loss for record companies, but a win for us consumers. When these companies start finding real talent that can put out albums that all 10 songs are worth purchasing the album for, we will continue only buying the one or two songs we actually like.

Since the debacle of the competing VCR formats, these companies have stupidly continued to put out competing formats wasting millions of dollars and frustrating millions of consumers who will stay on the sidelines until the dust settles and machines are designed that will utilize BOTH competing formats.

I didn't get a DVD until Pioneer came out with the DV47A that can play both SACD's & DVD-A's which I still have. I refuse to get caught in a format war between competing companies.

I will stick with epub, because I refuse to be locked into Amazon, B&N, or Apples ecosystem. There is no such thing as a company that will NEVER go out of business.

Publishers can continue with their idiotic drm, and consumers will continue to utilizing the tools needed to remove the drm so that we can keep OUR property!

Last edited by cfrizz; 02-12-2012 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:59 PM   #73
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If music revenues are down it is because we consumers now have the ability to buy our music per song and not be stuck buying a more expensive album for one or two songs surrounded by 8 other garbage pieces.
Its certainly a convenient theory, but many studies say different and attribute the recording industry decline to piracy and casual sharing in large part.

Quote:
Since the debacle of the competing VCR formats, these companies have stupidly continued to put out competing formats wasting millions of dollars and frustrating millions of consumers who will stay on the sidelines until the dust settles and machines are designed that will utilize BOTH competing formats.

I didn't get a DVD until Pioneer came out with the DV47A that can play both SACD's & DVD-A's which I still have. I refuse to get caught in a format war between competing companies.
Competing formats have been part of the tech industry since consumers had to decide between cylinders vs disks for recorded music. Its part of the innovation process. The current situation is no different from 1900,1950,1980 or 2000.

Quote:
I will stick with epub, because I refuse to be locked into Amazon, B&N, or Apples ecosystem. There is no such thing as a company that will NEVER go out of business.
Shrug. So what? Borders went out of business with no effect on Borders ebook consumers. It all depends on the existing business arrangements at the time. IN the meantime, the only way you can totally avoid ecosystem lock-in is by not buying anything at all.

Quote:
Publishers can continue with their idiotic drm, and consumers will continue to utilizing the tools needed to remove the drm so that we can keep OUR property!
Its not idiotic if it protects against losses of sales due to casual sharing , and you can't remove DRM from a book that the author doesn't write because she can't make a living writing books!!!

Last edited by stonetools; 02-12-2012 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:48 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by cfrizz View Post
Publishers can continue with their idiotic drm, and consumers will continue to utilizing the tools needed to remove the drm so that we can keep OUR property!
Or those of us who have a harder time with DRM removal simply will buy less to none, and borrow books from the library
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:14 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by crossi View Post
EULAs mean about as much as the tags on matresses saying that it is illegal to remove them.

You do know that the prohibition against removing the tags is for SELLERS, not buyers/users?
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