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Old 02-05-2012, 11:08 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Except that you said:

If you haven't recorded the payloads, why have you made the assertion that that particular net-range is responsible for receiving Kindle log-files? Shouldn't you wait until the evidence is in to make that claim if you're just doing unbiased research?
You caught me:
Please replace: "not recorded the payload" with "hit restart rather than stop" button in Wireshark in the single case of the log transmittal discovery. Hitting "restart" deletes the file rather than saving it first.
Wireshark saves on packet boundaries, it is not possible to "not save the payload" when you save a packet with Wireshark.
I should probably go back and edit that sentence now that you have proof-read it for me.

Translation: The evidence was passing in front of my eyes as I edited the first post to include that additional range. I just fat-fingered the saving of it.

Wireshark is an OpenSource tool, available for nearly all operating systems.
I suggest you install it and monitor that specific address range for yourself.
I am not the only person qualified to watch packets, you can do it also.

Important Note:
This is __not__ "Unbiased Research" - I posted my bias and flagged it as "Off Topic" in a post above.
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Old 02-05-2012, 11:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knc1
Wireshark is an OpenSource tool, available for nearly all operating systems.
I suggest you install it and monitor that specific address range for yourself.
I am not the only person qualified to watch packets, you can do it also.
You're assuming that I haven't already (but I prefer Ethereal... I'm old-fashioned).
I already know the answers to my own questions: I've never caught my Kindle transmitting anything large enough to represent the log file it collects. I'm not making fun... I'd be sincerely interested if someone caught their Kindle doing so red-handed. I'm just not interested in assumptions that packets being sent to a particular net-range contain log data. I want someone to show me that data. Because frankly... I'm tired of pouring through log files that time and time again reveal tiny transmissions not capable of carrying data of any "log-file" substance.

Perhaps your data will eventually prove me wrong—and I'll certainly be willing change my stance if/when it does. Good luck!
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:48 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by KenJackson View Post
Some of us want to control our environment because we've observed that the companies we do business with don't always have our best interest at heart.

Also, any information or control that any company has is available for an overreaching government to grab. And we KNOW the government doesn't have our best interest at heart.
You missed the second part of my post. Why not just turn off wireless? Why go through the troubles of host redirection and stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by knc1 View Post
The Kindle+3G device that I have is no longer "amazon's device" - it belongs to me now, I paid for it.

If you just want to read books, start with this one:
George Orwell, 1984

Beyond that, I will only say I believe it should be the owner's choice of if/when/what activity of theirs gets reported to someone else.
My own personal opinion and may not be shared by every reader here.
You don't have to condescend to me. I've read 1984 before and I know a bit about how the kindle works. My main question is: if you don't trust the device and don't care for the Internet features, why not just turn off the wireless?
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Old 02-05-2012, 06:27 PM   #19
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I have the same concerns as knc1 - in fact I found the idea of giant corporations reading over my shoulder with every page turn so disturbing that it caused me to take the risk of jailbreaking my brand new Kindle and running a dodgy anti-logging script. Keeping wifi off would be another solution. However I still might want to use wifi from time to time (particularly since I plan to travel with just my Kindle on occasion): to buy books while I'm out and about, to send documents to myself through amazon's document converter, and to use it as an emergency web browser (which was part of my reasoning in buying the device). But if I'm understanding the logging process correctly, if all my activity is being logged it can be requested by Amazon and sent in a single package the next time wifi is on, not even a very big package, making all my care in keeping it turned off useless.

Which suggests another approach to shielding kindle activity from Amazon: before turning on wifi, the owner logs in via sshnet and deletes the gzipped logs in /var/local/logs. It's cumbersome, but it's simple, and maybe low risk? It seems to me that since it's not modifying script files or config files it shouldn't break anything, but I've been very wrong before...
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Old 02-05-2012, 06:39 PM   #20
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Well, I would need concrete proof that amazon sends logs before I put on my tinfoil hat.
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Old 02-05-2012, 06:59 PM   #21
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DiapDealer and others' findings that logs are probably not being routinely transmitting were comforting to me to a degree. But for my own sake, the existence on the device of a second-by-second detailed profile of my reading habits that is requestable by Amazon is an upsetting privacy threat. And if I'm not mistaken, the presence of the showlog script means that they intended it to be easy to remotely request. If there's the potential to sell that data (realistically, in aggregate format) or use it to help their business, why would Amazon leave that money on the table?

But it would make a big difference to me too if someone did find proof that the logs are being transmitted. (I'm curious as to what happens to the older logs, since the gzipped ones in my var/local/logs only went back 2 of the 3 months of my ownership) Really appreciate your work, Kindle Dissector!
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yifanlu View Post
You missed the second part of my post. Why not just turn off wireless? Why go through the troubles of host redirection and stuff.
I go one better. I refuse to own a Kindle.

But I'm very interested in this topic, especially since the Kindle has a huge share of the market and could possibly become an effective monopoly. And I appreciate the efforts of anyone that investigates the potential for the abuse of data collection.

Poetcop just stated the issue more pointedly and eloquently than I can. And unquestioning, naive acceptance of the potential for abuse by the general public affects me and concerns me.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:27 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenJackson View Post
I go one better. I refuse to own a Kindle.

But I'm very interested in this topic, especially since the Kindle has a huge share of the market and could possibly become an effective monopoly. And I appreciate the efforts of anyone that investigates the potential for the abuse of data collection.

Poetcop just stated the issue more pointedly and eloquently than I can. And unquestioning, naive acceptance of the potential for abuse by the general public affects me and concerns me.
Well described, wish I could have expressed it as well.
Your last sentence there summarizes the situation that I see also.

Readers who followed the link to the Neilson Ratings description of their television measurement may have read that far enough to see how proud they are of their network of "real time" viewing practices from "set top" boxes.

Bet your cable, satellite, 'Internet TV', etc. provider that insists on having a telephone connection to your set top box forgot to mention the transmission of your viewing habits.

I am trying to make a fine distinction here:

The rating services provided by firms such as Neilson Ratings is an important component of the industries they serve and they are a highly respectable firm. I have no complaint about the business they are in.

What I do have a complaint about is monitoring a person's actions without mentioning that it is being done.
In fact, the vendor of my set top box system swore that the equipment was not reporting on what and when I watched. Even though Neilson claims my box was one of their millions of sources of information.

And the first step in doing anything about the situation with this e-book reader is to get it out in the open and discuss it.
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:51 AM   #24
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I'm not knocking anyone for trying to block Amazon. I believe you should do whatever you want with the device you own. Personally, I am more surrendering to the fact that many companies' commodity is people. Facebook sells your data, google sells your data, I'm fairly certain apple does, and I guess amazon does too. However, I just assume that everything I do when connected to the internet is 100% public and deal with things that way (instead of trying to "maintain" privacy").
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:37 AM   #25
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I'm not knocking anyone for trying to block Amazon.
Thank you.
Quote:
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I believe you should do whatever you want with the device you own.
I agree.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:46 PM   #26
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I just assume that everything I do when connected to the internet is 100% public ...
Gosh! I hope my paychecks and bank transactions aren't public.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:29 PM   #27
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I am not ready to take a position on that (yet).
My feeling is that GSM uses its own device addressing/naming conventions, not the Internet DNS.
I have a position now - which in the case of the AnyData card is only a guess:
Not very likely that communications over your 3G go through the Linux network stack.

The modem/radio cards can use a telephone number, a name, and/or a fixed IP address stored on your SIM card.
The modem/radio cards with chipsets that support a TCP/IP stack are rare.

AnyData is not all that forthcoming about their cards operational specifications, but my guess is that it is not one of the rare cardsets that directly support TCP/IP (and store a fixed IP address on your SIM card).

The AnyData card uses the Qualcomm qsc6270 modem/radio chip.
Qualcomm is not afraid that someone will use one of their devices.

The 4-page product brief shows a very busy little chip (see last page of brief).

You can get their 'AT command set' reference here, after you register for it:
AT Command Set

Which of course will not mention any AnyData proprietary commands, and the AnyData card may not respond to the QualComm proprietary commands since it probably runs a custom firmware image.
But it is a start on knowing the command set of the modem/radio.

Also available free, to the public, the "Industry Standard" portion of the AT Command Set:
TS 27.007 and:
TS 27.005

Just in case anyone is interested in poking at their 3G modem.

Last edited by knc1; 02-07-2012 at 06:14 AM. Reason: visual confirmation of the qsc6270 processor (ARM)
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:08 PM   #28
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I'm not knocking anyone for trying to block Amazon. I believe you should do whatever you want with the device you own. Personally, I am more surrendering to the fact that many companies' commodity is people. Facebook sells your data, google sells your data, I'm fairly certain apple does, and I guess amazon does too. However, I just assume that everything I do when connected to the internet is 100% public and deal with things that way (instead of trying to "maintain" privacy").
I live with that fact about google, facebook and the others (although I will never surrender to it!), but to date the experience of sitting quietly with a book, something that's been so important to me practically my whole life, hasn't been tainted in that way. In fact I was right there with KenJackson, unable to deal with using an e-reader, until I saw the hope that Yifan Lu was offering of getting some control over the device, and not giving up a new segment of my private life and habits. I'm a Yifan fan not just because of your technical achievements, but because of the work you do to make the solutions accessible, meaning that people who are not lucky enough to have your level of know-how don't have to just live with being spied by a device they bought. (and by a book of all things! Books should be adored, not viewed with suspicion as a possible corporate agent!)
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:15 PM   #29
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I'm also a bit befuddled by people worrying about Amazon 'knowing what they read'... Err, you just *bought* books from them, *of course* they're gonna know what you read!

And if you happen to sideload stuff, AFAIR, the logging on sideloaded books has never been complete enough to actually figure anything remotely interesting about the title/author/content of the book. The 'worse' I ever saw in logs regarding this is filenames, and that's only in debug mode...
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Old 02-07-2012, 04:32 AM   #30
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I'm also a bit befuddled by people worrying about Amazon 'knowing what they read'... Err, you just *bought* books from them, *of course* they're gonna know what you read!
They are going to know what you bought from them from the sales records for certain.
If that is the only thing they want to know, then let them use the sales records.

So either their firmware contractor (or firmware department head) sold them a bill of goods on all the man-hours to provision this device to report on consumer use or they want something other than what they can get from their own sales records.

They certainly expect to learn things which in the aggregate are of more value to them than their cost of providing "Free Wifi" and (the) "Free (portion of) 3G".
A standard business transaction of "value received" (the "free" stuff) for "consideration given" (the information sent).

I personally would like to have a "information sharing", advanced settings, panel.
Let the owner choose what information they are willing to share.
This thread demonstrates that opinion differs among the owners.

As others have posted, to discuss this any further requires more detail in exactly what is being sent. At this point we only know for certain that something is being sent.
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