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Old 11-24-2007, 06:55 AM   #31
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Given that the eBook is already so massively ahead in the enjoyment stakes, why are people bothered about whether or not they'll be able to re-read that book in 5 years time? That's what I just don't get. People don't complain that they can't eat their pizza again, so why all the fuss about the eBook? Why not just consider it a one-time pleasure, like the pizza?
Because what you read affects your enjoyment of other things or other books. For exemple in a long series I sometimes re-read all the books in the series to be able to enjoy the last book properly. I want to have a guarante that it is possible to do that before I start to read the series.

I also for pleasure discus books with friends and then you sometimes need to go back to a book and look up things.

And in the same way that you have had an extremely good meal att a restaurant that you later want to have again in the same way you sometimes want to repeat the experience of reading a specific book.

I really do not read books in a way that a comparision with eating pizza is relevant.
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Old 11-24-2007, 06:58 AM   #32
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As my dad would say, just hold on one cotton picking minute!!
Perhaps I missed it in all of my readings on the Kindle, but when did we decide that ebooks could not be kept? Is the DRM going to erase them from the memory on your ebook reader after you finish with the final page?
You have no guarentee that you will be able to read your book in 20 years time. If your Kindle is working you can read it but if it breaks then you cannot be sure that you can buy a replacement. Also Amazon can update the software in the Kindle to make it impossible to read your books.
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Old 11-24-2007, 07:01 AM   #33
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You have no guarentee that you will be able to read your book in 20 years time.
But it's equally true that you have no guarantee that if you buy a paper book now, you will have it available to read in 20 years time Any number of things, many of which are completely outside your control, could happen in those 20 years to cause you to lose it.
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Old 11-24-2007, 07:26 AM   #34
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But it's equally true that you have no guarantee that if you buy a paper book now, you will have it available to read in 20 years time Any number of things, many of which are completely outside your control, could happen in those 20 years to cause you to lose it.
Yes, you can loose the book but then you can reaquire it or you have friends that have the same book and so on. Of course it is a question of probability. But as I see it the probability that you cannot read a book in 20 years time is much higher for a DRM-book compared to non-DRM book or a paper book.
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Old 11-24-2007, 10:47 AM   #35
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HUH?
You list the reasons why there are so many people eager to buy Kindle. Go ahead and buy one. It looks like Amazon business model is tailor-made for you. I am really very glad we have another convert. You see, there are relatively very few people that read ebooks so most publishers do not care about us.

The thing is, people get burned by DRM now and again. Usually it is in situation when they lose access to their material much sooner that they think is fair or reasonable. So people are cautious when the re-use of the digital media they paid for (please notice I have avoided words bought or purchased) is solely in the hands of the third party. You never know what the corporation decides a year, or ten years from now. Of course, you can use your files again and again, without the need to contact Amazon, on that particular kindle device of yours, as long as back them up on the computer. But tell me, how long do you think your Kindle device will last when you use it every day, when you travel and comute with it? Five years? or perhaps even seven? In seven years there will be much, much better, larger and crisper displays.
What if you want to re-read your favourite book on a sparkling new Samsung ebook reader with color display with the size of A4 and resolution 300dpi five years from now? Tough luck.
Amazon HAS a record of discontinuing of support for DRMed books (I think it was some adobe format)

People are also very cautious when the third party has UNLIMITED access to their device, files, shopping habits ... . Just remember how people reacted to Windows Genuine Advantage when it was introduced. Just remember how people reacted to the SONY rootkit fiasco.
Mind you, Amazon has total control over your device. The ultimately total control. They can install anything they want. They can have a look at any file. If they wanted they could find out how often you read, or even where you read a book (it is possible to track your position using cellular network). It is impossible to have the EVDO connection switched off permanently. You have to switch it on at least from time to time, because the direct delivery of purchased books and newspapers to your kindle is the only way you can purchase media.
Amazon HAS a record of selling their customers data to third parties. There was a scandal quite a few years ago if I remember correctly.

Another thought. What would happen in a few years when EVDO connection is replaced by a next generation cellular network?

There are also people that would like to have a confirmation, or a password protection when buying books so they do not purchase book accidentally. That is impossible at the moment. You leave your Kindle unattended and a coworker makes a great practical joke of purchasing a few dozens of books in your name. Or somebody just browses and casually plays with your kindle without realizing that they are spending your money and actually buying books. Or a cat steps on your "buy now" button.

Yet another random thought. What happens when your kindle gets stolen?
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Old 11-24-2007, 10:47 AM   #36
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Going by that argument, presumably you keep all your old pizza boxes too?
Um... I bought the Pizza, not the box! Also, a book can be re-used... a Pizza box, not so much.

BOb
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Old 11-24-2007, 10:50 AM   #37
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It is impossible to have the EVDO connection switched off permanently. You have to switch it on at least from time to time, because the direct delivery of purchased books and newspapers to your kindle is the only way you can purchase media.
No, that's incorrect. You can purchase via the Kindle web site, download the file to your PC and upload it to your Kindle via USB. That's what people in areas of the US outside Sprint network coverage will have to do.

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Yet another random thought. What happens when your kindle gets stolen?
You deregister it from your Amazon account.
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Old 11-24-2007, 12:13 PM   #38
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Since some here seem to be worried that Amazon seems to have total control over the Kindle content, why not download the books to your system not using the wifi and then you have a local copy should you have the need for it if for some reason you cannot access Amazon to redownload?
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Old 11-24-2007, 12:13 PM   #39
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I appreciate all your thoughts about the Kindle. I have one and am enjoying it immensely. It's come a long way from the Rocket ebook! I really think that the more readers we have and the more people buying ebooks, regardless of the format, DRM, etc...the better for all of us. The more of us there are, the more of a need for a uniform format.

There are some points I want to address:

Quote:
People are also very cautious when the third party has UNLIMITED access to their device, files, shopping habits ..
Whoever you buy from has access to your shopping records. If you buy your books from Sony Connect...they know what you've bought. If you buy from Baen...they know what you bought. If concerned about Amazon seeing private files, you can add them via USB and then turn wireless off. Matter of fact you can keep wireless off and add all books via USB. Amazon, in my opinion, already has a very trusted reputation and couldn't survive without keeping and earning customer's trust.

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hey can install anything they want. They can have a look at any file. If they wanted they could find out how often you read, or even where you read a book (it is possible to track your position using cellular network).
Why would they care how often I read? Or where I read? They'll hopefully sell hundreds of thousands of these and I doubt there is a guy sitting in Seattle wondering where I'm reading World Without End today.

Quote:
There are also people that would like to have a confirmation, or a password protection when buying books so they do not purchase book accidentally. That is impossible at the moment. You leave your Kindle unattended and a coworker makes a great practical joke of purchasing a few dozens of books in your name. Or somebody just browses and casually plays with your kindle without realizing that they are spending your money and actually buying books. Or a cat steps on your "buy now" button.
You get a confirmation screen when you make a purchase. You get a screen that allows you to cancel your purchase when you make a purchase. You get an email confirming the purchase. You have 7 days to get a refund if someone casually and unknowingly buys a book.
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Old 11-24-2007, 12:20 PM   #40
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No, that's incorrect. You can purchase via the Kindle web site, download the file to your PC and upload it to your Kindle via USB. That's what people in areas of the US outside Sprint network coverage will have to do.
I stand corrected
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/custom...=200127480&#us
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Old 11-24-2007, 03:01 PM   #41
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Man I love the discussions on these boards! I've read them forever always keeping my opinion close to my chest, it feels so good to get it off my chest! Please forgive if I'm a little overzealous. :-)

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The thing is, people get burned by DRM now and again. Usually it is in situation when they lose access to their material much sooner that they think is fair or reasonable.
Humm, I hadn't heard of that before, perhaps my opinion on the issue is skewed because I've never had a bad experience with DRM...Could you give me an instance where people have been burned by DRM?

Quote:
Mind you, Amazon has total control over your device. The ultimately total control. They can install anything they want. They can have a look at any file. If they wanted they could find out how often you read, or even where you read a book (it is possible to track your position using cellular network).
...woah...maybe the key is to wrap the kindle in aluminum foil? Or your head? (j/k) Realistically, what do they gain from that information that harms you, even if they do decide to look at it? They know what books to suggest to me based on what I've already purchased? Fine by me, I don't feel like browsing through 90,000 of them all the time, and it's a friendly suggestion, not an order. As far as them being able to read my files, I've got nothing to hide! Even if the all knowing "they" could access a document that I created and put onto my kindle, for the same reason that I keep my car keys seperate from my house keys (i'm always losing my car keys!) it's not going to be the only copy, or my plot for world domination. (I keep that on my iphone.) If they want to read the honor harrington series, they can feel free. And they CAN install anything that they want onto my kindle. They're going to install what...updates? more features in the "experimental" category? Disable me from using the kindle (cough cough cash cow cough) that I purhchased from their store so I cannot purhcase their ebooks? What kind of sense does that make from a business standpoint?

Quote:
You leave your Kindle unattended and a coworker makes a great practical joke of purchasing a few dozens of books in your name. Or somebody just browses and casually plays with your kindle without realizing that they are spending your money and actually buying books. Or a cat steps on your "buy now" button.

Yet another random thought. What happens when your kindle gets stolen?
Someone else already pointed out the very realistic steps you'd take with amazon and the kindle if any of these things actually happened, but the same thing could happen if you have your wallet and credit cards stolen. Is that an argument against wallets or credit cards? i guess yes, but is it a convincing one?

My kindle is on the way and I think we're going to be very happy together. I'm going to keep my PRS 505 in my desk in case of emergency, or in case I want to read one of the books I had on my 505, but not bad enough to re-purchase it on amazon. If I decide to sell it, the funds will go to replace my library through amazon. Simple as that.

IMHO it's coming down to; some people prefer the convenience of having a tailor made library at your fingertips all the time, and are willing to sacrafice a little freedom in where they read the files, and a little cash if they occasionally have to re-purchase a book and some people would rather work a little bit harder to get the same content onto their reader of choice sans DRM. On the 500/505 when I wanted to get a book that wasn't available from the connect store, I'd do a little more work, I'd find it elsewhere (certainly not the darknet) convert it to a nice format, and transfer it in. I still have the ability to do that, I just hope I don't have to waste as much time doing it and can waste more time reading. :-) I recognize that I'm paying for the privilege.

Last edited by lubberts; 11-24-2007 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 11-24-2007, 04:15 PM   #42
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Some of the DRM systems that went down leaving their clients stranded:
1) Gemstar Rocket eBook
http://web.archive.org/web/200608131...kstore.woa/wa/
2) Embiid Publishing
http://webnews.sff.net/read?cmd=read...id&artnum=2091
3) Amazon eBooks (before Kindle)
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7223
There are more, but these are probably the most well-known examples.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:33 PM   #43
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...Could you give me an instance where people have been burned by DRM?
One example could be ... you.
I think I can asume that you own a DVD player.
You want to watch your favorite legally purchased disk.
You insert it into player and you have to suffer through FBI legal warnings, advertisement for questionable movies. *Every time*
There was a discussion recently on this forum and on Slashdot about some people that purchased baseball videos and the company that sold those videos simply switched off the servers authenticating and claimed that those videos were just "one time sale" see http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/07/2014253
There are people that have quite a lot of iTunes purchased and now they are locked in to iPod. I know that many people DO prefer iPod, but let us assume that Samsung releases player that is just much, much better and cooler. You could not use your song library with it.
Another example here on Mobileread:
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d+for+consumer

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... in aluminum foil? Or your head? ... Even if the all knowing "they" could access a document that I created and put onto my kindle, for the same reason that I keep my car keys seperate from my house keys (i'm always losing my car keys!) it's not going to be the only copy, or my plot for world domination. (I keep that on my iphone.)
Come on ...
... besides ... *aluminium* would not protect your brain adequately. You would have to use THE original Tin-foil hat [link to the GREAT site called straightdope] - that is one made from a ferromagnetic material.

Let us consider a purely hypothetical situation.
You have in the past purchased some .mobi or .lit files that are DRM protected. "Converting" those files to something readable on your next reader is something many people would consider "ethically all right". Something like "fair use". Our hypothetical user might think: "I paid for that file, so as long as I do not distribute the ... aehmm ... 'converted' result, no harm is done ...", yet such converting might turn out to be illegal. Normally nobody would ever have a chance to find out that you keep such file on a computer. With kindle however ...

In another thread someone mentioned that he would not get permission to read his [confidential] company documents on Kindle.

There are also people that download books from dark corners from the net and they might hesitate to put those books on Kindle.
I know, I know, one of the greatest features of kindle is that you can get the book you desire LEGALLY for a few bucks without using dangerous, cryptic, sometimes outright unpleasant and illegal means.

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And they CAN install anything that they want onto my kindle. They're going to install what...updates?
Sometimes an update can contain things that are undesirable.
Just ask some playstation II owners.
Another hypothetical situation.
Some clever guy invents a hack that would let you to read your (legally purchased, mind you) DRM protected *.lrf, *.lit or *.mobi files on your kindle by extracting PID from Kindle, so you can register it to your list of devices with some .mobi files provider.
Amazon finds out and patches the hole. Just like Sony in PRS505 patched the "hole" clever guys here used to load their "hacks" - like clock, turning pages with joystick, or better font sizes for booklist on PRS500

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IMHO it's coming down to; some people prefer the convenience of having a tailor made library at your fingertips all the time, and are willing to sacrafice a little freedom in where they read the files, and a little cash if they occasionally have to re-purchase a book and some people would rather work a little bit harder to get the same content onto their reader of choice sans DRM. On the 500/505 when I wanted to get a book that wasn't available from the connect store, I'd do a little more work, I'd find it elsewhere (certainly not the darknet) convert it to a nice format, and transfer it in. I still have the ability to do that, I just hope I don't have to waste as much time doing it and can waste more time reading. :-) I recognize that I'm paying for the privilege.
Well said. VERY well said.
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:48 PM   #44
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As far as them being able to read my files, I've got nothing to hide!
People got put on no fly list or list that trigger extra control when flying using information like what books you are reading. The problem is false positives and all trouble you get from them.
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Old 11-24-2007, 08:19 PM   #45
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@HarryT, just a couple of points:

1 - Quite a few MobileRead members do, in fact, re-read books. Many of them do a lot of this, according to the poll I set up.

2 - I don't buy take-away pizza. We make it at home. We rarely eat out -- can't afford it. Every penny counts in our household. Only the tight storage issues allowed me to justify an ereader at all (we can live in a smaller house as a result) and only my graduate studies let me justify my iLiad -- used, at half price-- to save money for paper and toner, as well as storage space again, for all the journal articles I'm assigned as part of my coursework.

For you, reading a book may be a one-time pleasure, and worth the money you pay for a book to read it once. I can understand and respect that. But for me, any book I'm paying for needs to be worth reading more than once, and I need to have some confidence I'll be able to do so. I know I'm not in the majority on this, but I don't think I'm alone, or in a very small minority, either.
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