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Old 12-16-2011, 07:53 PM   #46
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Hmm, I think this means that Lucas & Fox suck and are in a conspiracy to keep taking my money by evolving with technology.
Well... they really are... but that's beside the point.
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:03 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Morpheus Phreak View Post
So I bought the original Star Wars trilogy on VHS back in the 90's. I really want to use them on my Blu-Ray player and have all the features of the Blu-Ray version, but I can't.

I also bought the DVD versions that have both the original version of the movies and the updated version. I really want the original theatrical versions on Blu-Ray and have all of the quality and features of the Blu-Ray version but I can't do that.

Hmm, I think this means that Lucas & Fox suck and are in a conspiracy to keep taking my money by evolving with technology.


BTW I also really want my paperback copy of The Stand to morph into a signed galley copy, do you think you could assist with this?


Also I expect no charge for any of these changes, because I'm an entitled brat who thinks I should be able to purchase something once and have it work on everything forever.
That isn't quite the same. You are talking about a several different products. VHS tapes, DVDs, Blu-Rays have different resolutions and there are different features on the discs. You can, of course easily format-shift yourself if you have a Blu-Ray burner, and get a copy of the VHS movie on Blu-Ray (the equivalent of scanning a paper copy of a book, I guess). And you can watch the DVD in better quality on the Blu-Ray player than you ever could on your old DVD player (upscaling).

A book stays exactly the same, we don't expect a new copy. We just expect to be able to use the old copy on a new device. Many of us here have several devices just to be able to read different formats. And unlike the example mentioned by you this format shifting can be done very easily by the user and at no expense to the sellers if there is no DRM.

Device specific DRM is like asking you to wear special glasses just to read a book. Break those glasses and the book is worthless. And the glasses from company B won't work with the books from company A.

But I agree with those that say, as long as I can easily get rid of DRM I am not overly concerned about it.

Last edited by HansTWN; 12-16-2011 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 12-17-2011, 02:22 AM   #48
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And all the other major players DO clearly and consistently indicate which ebooks contain DRM and which do not?

It seems to me that by your own logic, you should be done with ALL the major retailers of ebooks then, right?
Yes.
Can you please indicate me which other fails to show the DRM status ?
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:18 AM   #49
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That isn't quite the same. You are talking about a several different products. VHS tapes, DVDs, Blu-Rays have different resolutions and there are different features on the discs. You can, of course easily format-shift yourself if you have a Blu-Ray burner, and get a copy of the VHS movie on Blu-Ray (the equivalent of scanning a paper copy of a book, I guess). And you can watch the DVD in better quality on the Blu-Ray player than you ever could on your old DVD player (upscaling).

A book stays exactly the same, we don't expect a new copy. We just expect to be able to use the old copy on a new device. Many of us here have several devices just to be able to read different formats. And unlike the example mentioned by you this format shifting can be done very easily by the user and at no expense to the sellers if there is no DRM.

Device specific DRM is like asking you to wear special glasses just to read a book. Break those glasses and the book is worthless. And the glasses from company B won't work with the books from company A.

But I agree with those that say, as long as I can easily get rid of DRM I am not overly concerned about it.
Yes I am talking about several different products, as are you. That's the point.

I can make a different comparison then if you'd prefer.

Darn I lived in England for a while and bought some movies, and then moved to China and bought some more. Now I live in the US and the movies I bought in England and China will not play on my DVD player I bought in the US.

Now I have to buy something else to be able to play these movies that (in the end using your logic) are the same product. I should be entitled to have this work in all areas all over the world, on any player I buy with no strings attached. I shouldn't have to buy different players or different copies of the movie. It should just work because I said so.



The point being if you buy a Kindle copy of a book, it's meant for the Kindle.


I bought the Kindle KNOWING what I was buying and KNOWING that some titles will have DRM, some will not, and that the AZW format was not going to work on non-Kindle devices. I can read the books on my KK, my KF, my Windows Phone, my PC, and my laptop. I honestly don't have a reason to worry about not being able to read the book somewhere.

If someone doesn't like the Amazon ecosystem, then I question why they are even here complaining about it in the first place. They should be using a different reader that allows them to do what they want.
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:52 AM   #50
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The point being if you buy a Kindle copy of a book, it's meant for the Kindle.

If someone doesn't like the Amazon ecosystem, then I question why they are even here complaining about it in the first place. They should be using a different reader that allows them to do what they want.
Oh, I don't have a Kindle reader. I (also) because in addition to locking the customers in, they also "lock" indie publishers in (through KDP select).

As I mostly buy Indie these days, I feel royally p****ed off that this all combines to lock Amazon's market.

I feel that Amazon is abusing its near monopolistic market share dominance to increase it to "total" monopole, and expand it to other markets, which I think is against the market's health interest.

If DRMs were my only gripe against Amazon, I'd keep on buying there. It's the combination of what others have described as predatory practices that lead me to that decision.

And yes, since I buy Indie, and most of them are engaging in this KDP select shit, by choosing to not shop at Kindle, I've decided against buying from some authors I like

As I said, a hard decision.
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:56 AM   #51
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Oh, I don't have a Kindle reader. I (also) because in addition to locking the customers in, they also "lock" indie publishers in (through KDP select).
This really is a load of dingo's kidneys, as I strongly suspect you're well aware yourself. Amazon are giving independent publishers the option of exclusivity, for 90 days at a time, in exchange for a very attractive deal. Nobody is holding a gun to the head of those publishers and forcing them to sign on the dotted line. There's nothing to stop any other eBook publisher from doing exactly the same thing.
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Old 12-17-2011, 05:51 AM   #52
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Hmm, forgive me i am just an idiot Englisman, but what is the problem with DRMs? are they not there to serve the writer's interests? in which case, what is wrong with that? and as H says above they can be got round by the sound of things. As an author, I wld accord amazon a AAA rating for devising a wonderful revolutionary too for tearing down old publishing. But creative work should be paid for should it not? A person who buys a pbook can't give it free so a million people as somone online cld. So surely the little author who wants to make a cent as I do needs some bar on his or her work being simply taken as free to anyone who pays a dollar for it. If an author wants free exposure they simply don't opt for DRM. I salute Amazon for allowing DRM. What is the case against it?
DRM only benefits Amazon (and other ebook reader sellers with their own book shop). It is there to tie readers to one device and to ensure they only buy their ebooks from one supplier. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors designed to con people into going along with it. DRM does none of the things its proponants claim it does.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:24 AM   #53
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Yes I am talking about several different products, as are you. That's the point.

I can make a different comparison then if you'd prefer.

Darn I lived in England for a while and bought some movies, and then moved to China and bought some more. Now I live in the US and the movies I bought in England and China will not play on my DVD player I bought in the US.

Now I have to buy something else to be able to play these movies that (in the end using your logic) are the same product. I should be entitled to have this work in all areas all over the world, on any player I buy with no strings attached. I shouldn't have to buy different players or different copies of the movie. It should just work because I said so.



The point being if you buy a Kindle copy of a book, it's meant for the Kindle.


I bought the Kindle KNOWING what I was buying and KNOWING that some titles will have DRM, some will not, and that the AZW format was not going to work on non-Kindle devices. I can read the books on my KK, my KF, my Windows Phone, my PC, and my laptop. I honestly don't have a reason to worry about not being able to read the book somewhere.

If someone doesn't like the Amazon ecosystem, then I question why they are even here complaining about it in the first place. They should be using a different reader that allows them to do what they want.
Yes, I do think region coding is a major consumer rip-off. Those poor people in Europe are being taken for a ride, as usual. It should be illegal. That is why the first thing I did to new DVD players is making them region free.

But you keep forgetting a few things. First you and I and some others bought our devices knowing about those drawbacks (and I definitely won't buy any books whose DRM I cannot disinfect) but a lot of people have no idea. And second, you don't have a choice. It is their way or the highway. Fortunately we can get back what is ours with some minor surgery, but again, most people are stuck.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:31 AM   #54
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But I agree with those that say, as long as I can easily get rid of DRM I am not overly concerned about it.
I think your sentiment is well and good for advanced-knowledge users/readers. You and HarryT don't worry much about DRM because you can strip it. Kudos to you.

But what about the millions of people who haven't got a clue, don't care to have a clue, and don't want to have to strip DRM. I can't imagine my 89-year-old father learning to strip DRM when it was even a struggle to get him to "master" the reading device to begin with. What most readers want is the book experience -- that is, they want to buy a book at the store of their choice, read it on the device of their choice, change devices without a hassle, and still be able to read the book on their new device.

What most consumers want is the DVD experience -- a single format that all film production companies use that is playable on the DVD player they own now and on the one they will own next year. Ask consumers, and few will be able to tell you anything at all about the DVD's copy protection scheme or how to circumvent it. All they want to know and do is take the DVD and put in the DVD player -- regardless of player brand -- press a button and watch the film on the TV of their choice (brand makes no difference).

In the print world, there is a level playing field on which all booksellers compete. Even on that field, Amazon was able to capture a very signifcant percentage of the market. But the ebook field is not a level playing field and Amazon does not want to compete on a level playing field. I think Amazon sees ebooks as a way to leverage consumers into doing more shopping at Amazon for non-book items, which is why it is willing to stand alone when it comes to DRM. In these early years of ebooks, Amazon can get away with its stance; I think in another 5 to 10 years, it may not be able to do so.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:36 AM   #55
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So I bought the original Star Wars trilogy on VHS back in the 90's. I really want to use them on my Blu-Ray player and have all the features of the Blu-Ray version, but I can't.

I also bought the DVD versions that have both the original version of the movies and the updated version. I really want the original theatrical versions on Blu-Ray and have all of the quality and features of the Blu-Ray version but I can't do that.

Hmm, I think this means that Lucas & Fox suck and are in a conspiracy to keep taking my money by evolving with technology.


BTW I also really want my paperback copy of The Stand to morph into a signed galley copy, do you think you could assist with this?


Also I expect no charge for any of these changes, because I'm an entitled brat who thinks I should be able to purchase something once and have it work on everything forever.
Sorry, but none of this has anything to do with the fact that Sony came out with two eink reader before Amazon so Sony is the one who should get the thanks, not Amazon.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:40 AM   #56
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Sorry, but none of this has anything to do with the fact that Sony came out with two eink reader before Amazon so Sony is the one who should get the thanks, not Amazon.
You are absolutely right, Jon. Sony were the first to have a bookstore with DRM; we should, therefore, all thank Sony for DRM on eBooks. Even now, I don't believe that the Sony store sells DRM-free eBooks, does it? (Unlike Amazon)
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:40 AM   #57
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And you can watch the DVD in better quality on the Blu-Ray player than you ever could on your old DVD player (upscaling).
I have both a DVD player and a Blu-Ray player. Both upscale. The DVD to 1080i and the Blu-Ray to 1080p. When I play a standard DVD on either, I get the same picture quality. So no, moving to Blu-Ray won't do anything to make DVDs any better looking.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:41 AM   #58
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Device specific DRM is like asking you to wear special glasses just to read a book. Break those glasses and the book is worthless. And the glasses from company B won't work with the books from company A.
Sounds just like 3D TV. You need the correct glasses for the 3D to work.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:46 AM   #59
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You are absolutely right, Jon. Sony were the first to have a bookstore with DRM; we should, therefore, all thank Sony for DRM on eBooks. Even now, I don't believe that the Sony store sells DRM-free eBooks, does it? (Unlike Amazon)
I have to say, you are so very wrong here. Sony was not the first. There was eReader, Mobipocket, PDF, MS Reader long before there was LRF. There were online stores selling these formats with DRM long before Sony. Even Amazon sold DRMed eBooks before Sony. All of this was before Sony came out with the Libre. So you don't get to blame Sony for the first bookstore with DRM.
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:47 AM   #60
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Amazon are giving independent publishers the option of exclusivity, for 90 days at a time, in exchange for a very attractive deal.
Harry, what is attractive about the deal? If it is such an attractive deal, (a) why aren't the Agency 6 jumping on the same bandwagon as Sally Unknown? (b) Why are there multiple deals being offered depending on who you are in the ebook food chain? (c) Why is there no way to independently verify sales/borrowing information?

This last item particularly concerns me. I know, having worked at high levels in an dominant book publisher, that to get an Agency 6 publisher to agree to any scheme, the publisher wants audit rights. No major publisher -- and I suspect no major authors, including Konrath -- would be willing to sign on without audit rights. They wouldn't take Amazon's word for how much royalty they earned.

And consider the exclusivity. First, the agreemnt is automatically renewed unless the author affirmatively opts out. But Amazon isn't known for its benevolence, any more than Apple under Jobs was. Consequently, the procedure has to be such that Amazon expects it will get more than one 90-day exclusive period. And if it doesn't, who knows what retribution it might exact -- have we already forgotten the removal of the buy now buttons in its dispute with Macmillan?

Second, the exclusivity is worldwide, yet the Prime program that this feeds isn't a worldwide program. Why?

I think to blindly trust Amazon and hope that Bezos is in a benevolent mood is like the ostrich sticking its head in the sand.


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Nobody is holding a gun to the head of those publishers and forcing them to sign on the dotted line. There's nothing to stop any other eBook publisher from doing exactly the same thing.
The Amazon juggernaut is itself quite a gun. Several authors have reported feeling pressured to sign on. Perhaps not overtly but pressure can be applied covertly or even be self-induced fear based on past actions taken by Amazon.

True, other retailers could take the same approach but because most authors seem to push Amazon -- ever notice how many authors announce their books here on MR as being available at Amazon and do not mention any place else even if their books are available elsewhere -- because Amazon has created in people's minds that it is the juggernaut to be reckoned with. Authors believe, rightly or wrongly, that without Amazon they have no chance. And that message is buttressed by authors like Konrath who encourage that perception. Consequently, no other ebook seller could successfully put out a program like this. Author's would fear losing Amazon as a seller and would fear retaliation from Amazon, something it is noted for.

I think your perspective is naive in the sense that it looks at the surface and doesn't penetrate the layers to deal with the reality of Amazon's business scheme.
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