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Old 11-27-2016, 02:45 PM   #1
pluma
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font with full super/under script support?

hello,

Which system font got full super/under script? Something installable.

e.g.:

◌ͣ ◌ᷨ ◌ͨ ◌ͩ ◌ͤ ◌ᷫ ◌ᷚ ◌ͪ ◌ͥ ◌ᷜ ◌ᷝ ◌ͫ ◌ᷠ ◌ͦ ◌ᷮ ◌ͭ ◌ͧ ◌ͮ ◌ᷱ ◌ͯ ◌ᷦ


thanks
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Old 11-27-2016, 05:03 PM   #2
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Those are known as Combining Diacritical Marks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combining_character

According to FileFormat.info, these are some fonts have support for that Unicode Range:

http://www.fileformat.info/info/unic...ontsupport.htm

You could also use BabelMap to figure out which fonts installed on your computer have support for that range:

http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelMap.html

Press Fonts -> Fonts Analysis Utility. Then make sure you click List All Fonts that Cover this Unicode Block + choose Combining Diacritical Marks in the dropdown:

Click image for larger version

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Old 11-27-2016, 05:09 PM   #3
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But it is possible that that unicode block might not work with an eInk Reader. Fior that matter, most reading programs/apps as well might not work.
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Old 11-27-2016, 05:16 PM   #4
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What is wrong with just using <sub> and <sup>?
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:13 PM   #5
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@pluma: Since you indicated an interest in epub3 books, you might be able to use MathML. Of course, as Toxaris suggested, using <sub> and <sup> would be the most robust solution.
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Old 11-28-2016, 02:35 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSWolf View Post
But it is possible that that unicode block might not work with an eInk Reader. Fior that matter, most reading programs/apps as well might not work.
Indeed. I have no clue how that block works on e-ink devices (never tried it)... and if many programs on the PC can't handle them properly (especially more obscure symbols like IPA accents)... I doubt many readers would either.

Can't say I ever ran across an ebook using them though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxaris View Post
What is wrong with just using <sub> and <sup>?
I believe pluma meant having the letters DIRECTLY above/below the characters (over/underscript)... slightly different than a normal super/subscript.

But maybe I made a wrong assumption about his intentions.

If pluma could explain some more of his specific use-case, that might also help. Are you working on some sort of Mathematics book? Linguistics? An old Bible? I can't really think of many other uses for over/underscripts. Do you already have a completed source document that is using all the Unicode diacritics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doitsu View Post
@pluma: Since you indicated an interest in epub3 books, you might be able to use MathML.
Indeed. If you were going for EPUB3, it would probably be more robust doing the overscript using MathML:

Code:
<mrow>
  <mover>
	<mi> x </mi>
	<mo> e </mo>
  </mover>
</mrow>
That would get you an italic 'x' with a roman 'e' directly above it.

The relevant MathML would use <munder> (underscript) + <mover> (overscript) + <munderover> (under/overscript):

https://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/chapte...l#presm.munder

Last edited by Tex2002ans; 11-28-2016 at 03:10 AM.
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Old 11-28-2016, 08:57 AM   #7
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sheer insanity!!

Code:
<mrow>
  <munder accentunder="true">
    <mrow>
      <mi> x </mi>
      <mo> + </mo>
      <mi> y </mi>
      <mo> + </mo>
      <mi> z </mi>
    </mrow>
    <mo> &UnderBrace; </mo>
  </munder>
  <mtext>&nbsp;versus&nbsp;</mtext>
  <munder accentunder="false">
    <mrow>
      <mi> x </mi>
      <mo> + </mo>
      <mi> y </mi>
      <mo> + </mo>
      <mi> z </mi>
    </mrow>
    <mo> &UnderBrace; </mo>
  </munder>
</mrow>
Unbelivable!! That's not a practical format for humans to express in written form!! I think that's a step backwards from Egyptian hieroglyphics. C'mon in 2016, with an advanced staged of technology and have to write with that I think is plain retarded, undoing centuries of evolution. Whover came up with that standard should be fired for causing brain damage and waste of CPU cycles.

Specially with UTF-8 which it could take advantage of the many features it got.

I just found out that "alt+6+numbers" works in the system:

¹a²b³c⁴d⁵e⁶

But I can't find the letters. So the font is installed already. I'd love to be able to do this with letters.

thanks.
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Old 11-28-2016, 09:34 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pluma View Post
That's not a practical format for humans to express in written form!!
There are many websites that will automatically generate MathML, e.g. MathML Central.

Also, AFAK, there's no single free font that covers all letters that you need from the following two Unicode ranges:

Combining Diacritical Marks (U+0300-U+036F)
Combining Diacritical Marks Supplement᷀ (U+1DC0-U+0DFF)

Also many advanced users disable the Publisher Fonts option in their reading apps.

If you're working on a non-commercial book, you also might want to consider a LaTex based solution that'll reformat the input to a .pdf file for 6" screens.

For example, Jellby has created a beautiful PDF version of the 3 Musketeers.

Alternatively, you could also convert all math formulas to SVG.
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Old 11-28-2016, 01:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pluma View Post
I just found out that "alt+6+numbers" works in the system:

¹a²b³c⁴d⁵e⁶
If this is the effect you want, use the <sup> tag. Much better supported that full unocode fonts. Not only that, full unicode fonts are big.
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Old 11-28-2016, 01:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pluma View Post
Code:
<mrow>
  <munder accentunder="true">
    <mrow>
      <mi> x </mi>
      <mo> + </mo>
      <mi> y </mi>
      <mo> + </mo>
      <mi> z </mi>
    </mrow>
    <mo> &UnderBrace; </mo>
  </munder>
  <mtext>&nbsp;versus&nbsp;</mtext>
  <munder accentunder="false">
    <mrow>
      <mi> x </mi>
      <mo> + </mo>
      <mi> y </mi>
      <mo> + </mo>
      <mi> z </mi>
    </mrow>
    <mo> &UnderBrace; </mo>
  </munder>
</mrow>
Unbelivable!! That's not a practical format for humans to express in written form!! I think that's a step backwards from Egyptian hieroglyphics. C'mon in 2016, with an advanced staged of technology and have to write with that I think is plain retarded, undoing centuries of evolution. Whover came up with that standard should be fired for causing brain damage and waste of CPU cycles.
I find it perfectly readable, sorry.
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Old 11-28-2016, 09:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pluma View Post
I just found out that "alt+6+numbers" works in the system:

¹a²b³c⁴d⁵e⁶

But I can't find the letters. So the font is installed already. I'd love to be able to do this with letters.
What is your use case though?

Are you trying to use these characters as footnotes? Or in Maths equations? Or what?

Side Note: Most fonts don't even have the Unicode superscript numbers, let alone the superscript letters. Plus the letters are split across many blocks... because their use case is mostly for highly specialized Linguistics [IPA/UPA], NOT everyday typing.

Side Note #2: Another thing to look out for (besides the superscript characters missing in most fonts) is completely crap kerning/placement. So you can get really atrocious looking things like:

Click image for larger version

Name:	SuperScriptCompare.png
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Code:
Sample example.¹⁰
Sample example.<sup>10</sup>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxaris View Post
If this is the effect you want, use the <sup> tag. Much better supported that full unocode fonts.
Yep. If you just want the normal super/subscript, definitely just use the <sup> + <sub> instead. Then you could insert whatever numbers/letters/symbols you want and have it look consistent. Plus that method would work across all devices/fonts/programs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pluma View Post
Specially with UTF-8 which it could take advantage of the many features it got.
Just because it is in UTF-8 doesn't mean that would be the most reliable way to represent it in your book. Many of the characters are just in there for backwards compatibility with older documents, or when dealing with purely Plain Text documents.

Also, sometimes things are better left to the rendering engine + OpenType fonts to handle... for example, ligatures are best left out of source material and would be substituted on-the-fly: fi (fi) + ff (ff) + fl (fl) + ae (æ) + [...].

Quote:
Originally Posted by pluma View Post
Unbelivable!! That's not a practical format for humans to express in written form!! I think that's a step backwards from Egyptian hieroglyphics. C'mon in 2016, with an advanced staged of technology and have to write with that I think is plain retarded, undoing centuries of evolution. Whover came up with that standard should be fired for causing brain damage and waste of CPU cycles.
Do you have a better representation of Maths?

The purpose of MathML was to create something that is easily parsable (XML) + easily passable between programs (you can Copy/Paste/Import/Export equations) + ties semantic information into equations (VERY important for things like Text-to-Speech).

I admit, it isn't really the easiest thing to read/type out by hand... but NO complicated Math is.

But as Doitsu pointed out, there are many tools to help create equations then export to MathML. If you already have a completed source document, there are plenty of tools out there to help you.

Last edited by Tex2002ans; 11-28-2016 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 12-05-2016, 06:18 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tex2002ans View Post
Also, sometimes things are better left to the rendering engine + OpenType fonts to handle... for example, ligatures are best left out of source material and would be substituted on-the-fly: fi (fi) + ff (ff) + fl (fl) + ae (æ) + [...].
How to check, in linux, that the font is indeed OpenType?

Can you reccomend a way to make sure the use OpenType in both latex/pdf and epub?

thanks
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Old Yesterday, 03:24 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pluma View Post
Can you reccomend a way to make sure the use OpenType in both latex/pdf and epub?

thanks
Embed the font in the PDF and/or ePUB, if you are allowed (not all fonts allow it). By the way, the Symbola font is pretty complete with regards to Unicode.
Even if you embed the font, it is still no guarantee it will be used. It also depends on the renderer. A lot of reading programs do not support embedded fonts.
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