DRM = BAD

Nate the great · 11-07-2007, 05:02 PM

MLB is willing to sell you a copy of footage of their games. It costs $3.95 per game, and after you download it, you can back it up onto a CD-R. It's just like buying a disk or tape of the game.

Only it's not. If you want to watch the footage, every so often you have to go back to their website and verify the license key. Big problem here. MLB switched to a different DRM services provider earlier this year, and lost access to the keys from the previous one. Anyone who had previously bought videos is SOL. No refunds, no substitutions.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...with-fans.html

NatCh · 11-07-2007, 05:04 PM

Now that DRM has touched Baseball, perhaps we'll finally see some public outrage!

AnemicOak · 11-07-2007, 05:06 PM

This is the kind of thing I fear happening with any sort of DRM material. For example what if Sony decided 5 years from now that Connect isn't worth running anymore. Will anyone that's bought a DRM'd .lrf be out of luck? Baen has it right, if only the big publishers would go along.

JSWolf · 11-11-2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

This is the kind of thing I fear happening with any sort of DRM material. For example what if Sony decided 5 years from now that Connect isn't worth running anymore. Will anyone that's bought a DRM'd .lrf be out of luck? Baen has it right, if only the big publishers would go along.

Sony's DRM does not require you to connect to some DRM server to read your book. All it requires is for you to have the device(s) that were registered when the book was downloaded.

AnemicOak · 11-11-2007, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Sony's DRM does not require you to connect to some DRM server to read your book. All it requires is for you to have the device(s) that were registered when the book was downloaded.

Right, I get that but what if five years from now Sony dumps Connect & the whole ebook thing (like they're doing with the music store)? Say then my 505, or whatever Sony device, dies sometime after that. I'll be out of luck since there will be no new device or way for me to register a used replacement. It's not a big deal for me since I own exactly one book from Connect, but it's one of my main fears with DRM. There's no guarantee whatever company will be around 5, 10, 20 years from now. My pbooks will virtually last & be usable forever & my ebooks should too.

JSWolf · 11-12-2007, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

Right, I get that but what if five years from now Sony dumps Connect & the whole ebook thing (like they're doing with the music store)? Say then my 505, or whatever Sony device, dies sometime after that. I'll be out of luck since there will be no new device or way for me to register a used replacement. It's not a big deal for me since I own exactly one book from Connect, but it's one of my main fears with DRM. There's no guarantee whatever company will be around 5, 10, 20 years from now. My pbooks will virtually last & be usable forever & my ebooks should too.

Let's take another look at DRM using Mobipocket. You purchase books in Mobipocket format thinking that because there are a lot of devices that read the format you will be OK in the future with their DRM. But, you have replaced your old devices with new ones that have different PIDs (including your computer). You go to setup your new PIDs at the online shop you purchased the books, But you find that the shop is no longer in business. What do you do then? You have new devices you want to use to read your books with, but you cannot get the PIDs updated. You can either go to another online shop and purchase the book again with your new PIDs or you can do without. Take Amazon.com. If you previously purchased ebooks from there and want to update the DRM and redownload, if it's past 1 year since purchase, you cannot redownload.

cassle · 11-12-2007, 06:12 AM

Well, I don't think Sony'll gonna do that.. actually... Will they..?

JSWolf · 11-12-2007, 06:18 AM

Well, Sony does seem to be investing in ebooks. So I don't see Sony closing shop any time soon.

FixB · 11-12-2007, 07:07 AM

Well, they were all in the Palm thing with the Clies some times ago.. until...
So : who knows ??

AnemicOak · 11-12-2007, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Let's take another look at DRM using Mobipocket. You purchase books in Mobipocket format thinking that because there are a lot of devices that read the format you will be OK in the future with their DRM. But, you have replaced your old devices with new ones that have different PIDs (including your computer). You go to setup your new PIDs at the online shop you purchased the books, But you find that the shop is no longer in business. What do you do then? You have new devices you want to use to read your books with, but you cannot get the PIDs updated. You can either go to another online shop and purchase the book again with your new PIDs or you can do without. Take Amazon.com. If you previously purchased ebooks from there and want to update the DRM and redownload, if it's past 1 year since purchase, you cannot redownload.

That's all true, but I'm agreeing with the OP in saying DRM is bad. It has nothing to do with Mobi being better/worse than Sony.

AnemicOak · 11-12-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Well, Sony does seem to be investing in ebooks. So I don't see Sony closing shop any time soon.

I very much hope you're right. It wasn't that long ago that they opened Connect music though & they're dropping that already (I know it's not exactly the same thing), at least the music buyers can burn a regular CD copy of their music before it goes away. They were pretty big on the PDA market not that long ago & AFAIK they've dropped that completely.

I very much want them to stick with the ebook market & as long as sales are OK & projections are met I'm sure they will.

Barcey · 11-12-2007, 09:03 PM

The problem with any DRM is that it exists to protect the company that implements it at the expense of the customer's short and long term interests. It's never a good business plan to put your own company's interest ahead of your customer's. Well at least you don't want them to know about it.

The only way DRM can be successful is if the customer doesn't know it exists. I've worked with many software companies that have tried to implement software copy protection by requiring hardware dongles or adapters to be installed in the computer. It's not a pleasant experience to have to explain to a company that their server was down for a couple of days because although they paid thousands of dollars for the software the vendors DRM dongle broke. All the companies I know that have tried this have reversed the decision or gone out of business.

The best example of DRM that I can think of that actually works is the stamp of "Property of Littleville Public Library" stamped in books. You don't notice it unless you forgot to return it and if you have that sitting in your library you must feel like you're two inches high (if you have any self respect).

People don't remove the copyright information from the e-books I don't know why we can't just have a simple scheme of stamping the Owner, Purchaser, Company purchased from and a transaction number to the book and have a legal statement that you can't remove this information. Something like the "If you bought this book without a cover you're breaking the law". If a company did this they'd get my business.

Can it be enforced? No but neither can any DRM.

andym · 11-13-2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Take Amazon.com. If you previously purchased ebooks from there and want to update the DRM and redownload, if it's past 1 year since purchase, you cannot redownload.

Can you substantiate this? Amazon.com don't sell Mobipocket books from their site (you have to go to mobipocket). Their website says that any etexts you buy from them will be kept indefinitely.

Why let the facts get in the way of a (not very) good argument?

AnemicOak · 11-13-2007, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andym

Can you substantiate this? Amazon don't sell Mobipocket books. Thire website says that any etexts you buy from them will be kept indefinitely.

I think he means in the past. I don't know what if anything they do with ebooks anymore on the actual Amazon site (they do own Mobi), but in the past you could only redownload the file for a year, after that you were out of luck.

JSWolf · 11-13-2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andym

Can you substantiate this? Amazon.com don't sell Mobipocket books from their site (you have to go to mobipocket). Their website says that any etexts you buy from them will be kept indefinitely.

Why let the facts get in the way of a (not very) good argument?

Amazon.com used to sell ebooks. That was before they purchased Mobipocket.

11-07-2007, 05:02 PM	#1
Nate the great Sir Penguin of Edinburgh Posts: 10,026 Karma: 2422819 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: DC Metro area Device: Shake a stick plus 1	DRM = BAD MLB is willing to sell you a copy of footage of their games. It costs $3.95 per game, and after you download it, you can back it up onto a CD-R. It's just like buying a disk or tape of the game. Only it's not. If you want to watch the footage, every so often you have to go back to their website and verify the license key. Big problem here. MLB switched to a different DRM services provider earlier this year, and lost access to the keys from the previous one. Anyone who had previously bought videos is SOL. No refunds, no substitutions. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...with-fans.html

11-07-2007, 05:04 PM	#2
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,605 Karma: 926222 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Nook STGR	Now that DRM has touched Baseball, perhaps we'll finally see some public outrage! __________________ ΨΦ! "Torg, why do you have emergency pants?" -- Riff

11-07-2007, 05:06 PM	#3
AnemicOak Bookaholic Posts: 7,389 Karma: 18766781 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Minnesota Device: AuraHD, Nook HD+, Kindle 2,3,T , Opus, TF101, Nexus7, iPT, iPhone5	This is the kind of thing I fear happening with any sort of DRM material. For example what if Sony decided 5 years from now that Connect isn't worth running anymore. Will anyone that's bought a DRM'd .lrf be out of luck? Baen has it right, if only the big publishers would go along. __________________ ~Brian "The test of any good fiction is that you should care something for the characters; the good to succeed, the bad to fail. The trouble with most fiction is that you want them all to land in hell together, as quickly as possible." — Mark Twain

11-12-2007, 06:18 AM	#8
JSWolf Mobile Reader Geek Posts: 34,205 Karma: 13801264 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Sony Reader PRS-650, iPad	Well, Sony does seem to be investing in ebooks. So I don't see Sony closing shop any time soon. __________________ Jon 2013 Reading List

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11-12-2007, 06:12 AM	#7
cassle Enthusiast Posts: 34 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2007 Device: PRS-500, iPhone	Well, I don't think Sony'll gonna do that.. actually... Will they..?

11-12-2007, 07:07 AM	#9
FixB Groupie Posts: 186 Karma: 499 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: France, Toulouse Device: Sony PRS500	Well, they were all in the Palm thing with the Clies some times ago.. until... So : who knows ??

11-12-2007, 09:03 PM	#12
Barcey Wizard Posts: 1,078 Karma: 2675390 Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Canada Device: PocketBook 301+/Cybook GEN3 /iPod Touch	The problem with any DRM is that it exists to protect the company that implements it at the expense of the customer's short and long term interests. It's never a good business plan to put your own company's interest ahead of your customer's. Well at least you don't want them to know about it. The only way DRM can be successful is if the customer doesn't know it exists. I've worked with many software companies that have tried to implement software copy protection by requiring hardware dongles or adapters to be installed in the computer. It's not a pleasant experience to have to explain to a company that their server was down for a couple of days because although they paid thousands of dollars for the software the vendors DRM dongle broke. All the companies I know that have tried this have reversed the decision or gone out of business. The best example of DRM that I can think of that actually works is the stamp of "Property of Littleville Public Library" stamped in books. You don't notice it unless you forgot to return it and if you have that sitting in your library you must feel like you're two inches high (if you have any self respect). People don't remove the copyright information from the e-books I don't know why we can't just have a simple scheme of stamping the Owner, Purchaser, Company purchased from and a transaction number to the book and have a legal statement that you can't remove this information. Something like the "If you bought this book without a cover you're breaking the law". If a company did this they'd get my business. Can it be enforced? No but neither can any DRM.

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