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Old 12-19-2011, 10:28 PM   #61
WT Sharpe
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Discussions will still start on the 20th. We'll just have 2 days less to read the book.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:33 PM   #62
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Discussions will still start on the 20th. We'll just have 2 days less to read the book.

Okay. Thanks Tom.
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:32 PM   #63
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I'll post the thread with the poll instructions just after midnight. Basically it's a 4/3 solution; four days for the original poll, three days for the run-off between the top two contenders. (If the first poll results in a tie for first or second place, the second poll may have more than two choices.)
I think the vote lengths sound great.

I will make a suggestion on ties though. The idea of tiered is to get a book with more than 50% support each time (a majority), which will only definitely happen with two choices on the second vote. And in the vote thread, the rhetorical question was asked - what would happen if there were a large tie, which is especially possible on hidden vote months.

To take care of those possibilities, I'd suggest Tom use his tie-breaking abilities to make sure only two books are ever in the second poll. So, for example, if one book got the most votes and two (or more) tied for second, then Tom would "cast a vote" for one of those books in second place to break the tie. Or, if three (or more) books tied for first, then Tom would "cast a vote" for two of the tied books. That is a simple way to ensure we always have only two options for the final vote.

I think this is up to Tom to decide though. Tom, I know it may feel like a lot of power on your part to break ties, but I don't think it is since you don't normally vote in the first place (it'd be like an extension of the old tie-breaker rule on non-tiered polls). Also, I think it will make things simpler and less open to debate in the case of ties.
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Old 12-20-2011, 10:20 PM   #64
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I'd suggest Tom use his tie-breaking abilities to make sure only two books are ever in the second poll. So, for example, if one book got the most votes and two (or more) tied for second, then Tom would "cast a vote" for one of those books in second place to break the tie. Or, if three (or more) books tied for first, then Tom would "cast a vote" for two of the tied books. That is a simple way to ensure we always have only two options for the final vote.
That's okay with me, although I wouldn't mind if the second vote had three options. I figure that any winnowing down from the large list is helpful, and I'm not going to feel cheated if sometimes the second-vote winner only had 40% of the vote. That's a lot more substantial than 12% the way it's sometimes been.

Mostly I hope the tiered voting creates more direct interest in the winner and therefore encourages more readers and more conversation.
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:46 AM   #65
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...

To take care of those possibilities, I'd suggest Tom use his tie-breaking abilities to make sure only two books are ever in the second poll. So, for example, if one book got the most votes and two (or more) tied for second, then Tom would "cast a vote" for one of those books in second place to break the tie. Or, if three (or more) books tied for first, then Tom would "cast a vote" for two of the tied books. That is a simple way to ensure we always have only two options for the final vote.

...
I don't like this idea.

I have no problem with the admin casting a (single) tie breaking vote. But, IMO, there should only be one vote per member. I don't see a problem with more then 2 books in the runoff vote.

Although... is this fair for the admin, he/she may never really get to vote for what they want?
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:51 AM   #66
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I don't like this idea.

I have no problem with the admin casting a (single) tie breaking vote. But, IMO, there should only be one vote per member. I don't see a problem with more then 2 books in the runoff vote.

Although... is this fair for the admin, he/she may never really get to vote for what they want?
I agree with you John.

The admins vote (WT Sharpe is male, BTW), has always been reserved as the tie breaking vote, in the past. I do not think that has changed. Tom will comment if it has, however.
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Old 12-21-2011, 10:25 AM   #67
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Actually, we each get two votes now. One for the initial vote and one for the final vote. So I do not think Tom casting two in in the (unlikely) event that three or more tie for first place is unfair. And there are many, many months that he never casts votes at all, and yet he is a part of this book club.

Once we get used to the tiered and having two for the final poll, I think having a month where we end up with three or more in the final poll may lead to debate. Whichever choice ends up in third, or fourth, or so on, those voters might've preferred the second place to the first and could feel gipped that they couldn't have a say between the top two. Again, this is once we all get used to tiered and always deciding between the top two.

And then, there's the unlikely but possible result (especially with a hidden vote) of having a large tie, as HomeInMyShoes and Nyssa wondered about in the vote thread. What's the point of tiered if the second poll has so many options?

So, since this is new and we're just getting started, my suggestion was given as a way to keep things simple and even from month to month and open to less debate in the event of ties.
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Old 12-21-2011, 10:29 AM   #68
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^I'm doubtful we'd ever get more than maybe three options in the second round of voting. I mentioned it because it is a possibility and the owners of the book club should make it explicit what happens in those cases. So as to have at least something to stand on when the arguments inevitably start.
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:46 PM   #69
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I'm going to reserve the right to use my votes as tie-breakers in either poll, but unless there's more than a 2-way tie for second in the first vote, I probably won't be voting in that one.
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:53 PM   #70
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Actually, we each get two votes now. ...
Actually, don't we get five votes? Three nominations, and two votes. And for the runner-up month we then get 9 votes? This multiple votes thing sounds like a stretch of the plausible, to me.

I'm still for the opinion: one member, one vote.

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... and open to less debate in the event of ties.
I thought that's why we are having this thread now, so there won't be any debate throughout the year.
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:56 PM   #71
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Actually, don't we get five votes? Three nominations, and two votes. And for the runner-up month we then get 9 votes? ...
Sorry, I got confused with this multiple vote concept, that should be 7 votes total.
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:31 PM   #72
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I personally do not see a need for a 6 month rule. A book is only fully nominated after getting a 2nd and a 3rd. If people are not interested in reading it, or find it to be out of genre, then it will not get nominated. If it gets nominated, then there is a interest, and denying the nomination says that we do not care that there is an interest.

Storm Front, like Lolita, was a "political game", for lack of a better phrase. People nominated and/or voted for it to make a statement. As I stated earlier, I'm pretty sure Storm Front would be ignored if it was suggested for the Romance category.
Part of the problem is we do sometimes end up with books nominated that are not really a fit with the category for the month and even when this is pointed out, they are still allowed. We really need to take a stand and disallow these books from being nominated.
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:32 PM   #73
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The existence of political games is the very reason we need a six-month rule, and if there are not major objections from a good percentage of members, I'd like to implement it. Of course, between my memory and the necessary distraction of my regular moderator duties, I'll need some keen eyes out there to keep an eye out for repeats and bring them to my attention. So if there are no strong objections, here is the rule:

Any objections?
I object if this 6-month rule includes books nominated that did not make it to the vote. I'm OK with it if it's only for books that make it to the vote but do not win.
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:34 PM   #74
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Thanks, Nyssa.



Perhaps political is the wrong word. We had one particular book last year that was nominated in several different categories.
But sometimes books do fit in more then one category. Take a Discworld book. It can fit in Fantasy and Humor. Both are appropriate.
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:35 PM   #75
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Discussions will still start on the 20th. We'll just have 2 days less to read the book.
With the size of some of the tombs being nominated, I'd like more time then less time.
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