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Old 10-21-2011, 06:31 PM   #1
forcheville
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Importance of typography and layout

I've always contended that the greater good of adaptable (and editable) screen formats in epub/mobi type ebooks outweighs the lesser good of preserving the elegance of traditional book design.

In the case of PD books I have the opportunity to test this by comparing a nicely formatted Project Gutenberg derived epub on a 6" reader with a cleaned-up DjVu page for page copy of an old edition from the Internet Archive on a 10" reader.
I find I prefer the latter every time.
With new memory making file-size a non issue and better, larger screens, I wonder if high-class page-design (without options) might be due for a comeback?

Any thoughts?
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:50 PM   #2
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If you have the ability to change font sizes, "page design", per se, isn't possible, as far as I can see. I just want readable text, decent-looking chapter headings, and a Table of Contents. Of course, I only read novels on my Kindle/Kindle apps.
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:32 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Susan
Of course, I only read novels on my Kindle/Kindle apps.
Well, that just puts you firmly among the vast majority. And, from a presentation point of view, I have long held that authors (or Indie Publishers) have no choice but to also become competent in xhtml/css... all eBooks have html "inside" and, with Amazon's decision to upgrade from AZW (MOBI) to a new format that is practically raw html/css, the reasons become even stronger.
For novels, the re-flowable layout needed for any eBook is really very simple. As stated, it's chapter headings, paragraph spacing, some simple graphics handling, the ability to create centering or indenting, a way to make ToCs look other than ugly, yet still work properly... The css subset allowed today is adequate for those simple tasks, but those wanting to publish books that include more complex handling of graphics do have a harder time. I'm afraid that the days of expecting other specialist tradies like Typesetters or Printers to handle those awkward problems have gone.
It ain't rocket science... but it's amazing how many authors are crying "unfair" – they want to simply write and have someone else take care of the publishing details. That's why firms like Smashwords have such a huge following. It's also why so many eBooks have such dreadful page layout.
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:37 PM   #4
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I think the bigger the size of your screen, the more typography and layout matter. If you're reading on a phone, you pretty want just the text, ma'am. On a 6" ereader, you want a bit more presentation. On a tablet, you want something closer to a printed book while still being able to choose your own main font type and size.

Currently, ebooks are pretty much targeted for something like html 3. That will change (maybe people don't want it to, but it will.)

I split my reading between kindle (day) and ipad (night). On the ipad, I use Stanza and enjoy playing amateur publisher.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forcheville View Post
...
With new memory making file-size a non issue and better, larger screens, I wonder if high-class page-design (without options) might be due for a comeback?

Any thoughts?
I don't think that there is any chance at all, at least for the vast majority of ebooks.

There is absolutely nothing about ebooks and ereaders acquiring the capability to display higher-class page design and typography that will magically give ebook creators either the artistic skill to create better designs and/or the publishers to spend the extra money to hire the better designers.

Paper books, in recent decades have generally been poor to horrid on average. Only a modest percentage of early hard back editions are more readable than my Kindle.

The current ebook formats (ePub2 & AZW/MOBI7) are like a loaded revolver. They can be put to good use by someone with the right skill, but can do damage when handled by the unskilled (or clumsy robots like Meatgrinder). ePub3 and AZW/K8 will simply replace the revolver with an Uzi, more power to do more harm when handled by the unskilled.
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Old 10-22-2011, 01:11 AM   #6
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Electronic books = price pressure.
Lower prices = need to cut costs, including on layout.
No fixed page = difficulty in doing any elaborate layout (i.e. high cost).
Masses prefer lower prices than elaborate and aesthetically pleasing layout.

But who knows. Maybe there will be pre-defined recipes that would account for a number of screen sizes and font sizes and will automate elaborate layout without too much human intervention? Smart hmtl-css anyone? Or just css zen garden for ebooks?

Actually CSS Zen Garden approach to ebooks would be awesome. A book could come in one style by default and for a small fee readers could buy other book styles for their books (with different illustrations, video, sound, formatting). Re-reading a book in a different CSS formatting could make a different experience.

Last edited by osnova; 10-22-2011 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwig
Paper books, in recent decades have generally been poor to horrid on average. Only a modest percentage of early hard back editions are more readable than my Kindle.

The current ebook formats (ePub2 & AZW/MOBI7) are like a loaded revolver. They can be put to good use by someone with the right skill, but can do damage when handled by the unskilled (or clumsy robots like Meatgrinder). ePub3 and AZW/K8 will simply replace the revolver with an Uzi, more power to do more harm when handled by the unskilled.
Agree about recent pBooks, but that's more an economic issue... profit has evaporated from that business so corners are being cut.
Also, with the huge number of scanned eBooks (re-releases of pBooks) it's not just recent pBooks that are guilty of dreadful layout. Many just-released eBooks are positively riddled with dreadful (non-existant) layout and typos resulting from OCR, missing words, even whole sentences.
For the new K8, a slight improvement on ePub IF HANDLED CAREFULLY means that more people associated with ePublishing HAVE to learn how to do that! Otherwise K8 will just become K9, a dog of a format.
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:07 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barty View Post
Currently, ebooks are pretty much targeted for something like html 3. That will change (maybe people don't want it to, but it will.)
Oh dear. I've been beavering away with XHTML 1.1 strict all this time, not knowing any better.
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:15 AM   #9
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A carefully typeset printed book is obviously better than an automatically converted ebook. But a carefully formatted ebook can be much better than a lousy printed book.

From these two pages, I prefer the ebook to the scan. (The title font is intentionally "shaky".)
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Old 10-22-2011, 07:54 AM   #10
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Maybe I'm the odd duck out (and this seems likely - I am very spartan about my reading), but I really don't care that much, if we're talking about aesthetics.

Greet me with 300 pages of nothing but basic text, and naught but a number in giant Arial font for a chapter marker. I really don't care. I care about what's in the book. And what's in the book could often use some serious help.

It's not that I don't have an appreciation for design. I do. If there's anywhere I like to see good design, it's the cover. Cheesy and badly-made book covers are almost the rule, and I'd like to see that change.

It's just that once I'm in the book, I stop caring completely. And frankly, the e-publishing industry has bigger problems. They should spend all that time and money on fixing the damn typos and errors are that everywhere instead of adding pretty flourishes. I don't read flourishes.

You know, as a copy editor, I think I've figured out why this is happening with ebooks. And newspapers. And magazines. And everywhere else.

People editing on a screen. I'm terrible working off a screen. And as much as I'd love to go totally paperless, the fact of the matter is this: I suck at my job unless I print the thing out and have a hard copy in my hands, with my red pen.

I've tried all the software. I've tried making the font huge. I've tried just doing more run-through's. I've tried everything. Some of it helps, but none of it brings me up to par with how I work with paper. It's not the tools. It's the screen itself. I just miss stuff when I'm working with a screen. And I have met others who have said the same thing. This is apparently not just me. This is a problem with the way we interface with screens - or at least how some people do.

This is ok on a blog. It is not ok on something you expect people to pay money for.

And I am pretty sure that the sudden decline in professionalism in writing is due in large part to people editing on screens.

Print out the manuscript and edit properly, damn it!!

Last edited by SmokeAndMirrors; 10-22-2011 at 08:08 AM. Reason: See what I mean!!
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:09 AM   #11
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I like the theory that the bigger the screen, the more formatting you would like. But here's the problem: let's say there are bigger screens that you (the publisher) could design for. Are you going to create one version for a 10" screen, one version for a 9" screen, one version for a 7" screen, and one version for a 6" screen? Or are you going to create one reflowable version with the minimum formatting in it, to look "ok" at all sizes?

eP
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Old 10-22-2011, 12:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elemenoP View Post
I like the theory that the bigger the screen, the more formatting you would like. But here's the problem: let's say there are bigger screens that you (the publisher) could design for. Are you going to create one version for a 10" screen, one version for a 9" screen, one version for a 7" screen, and one version for a 6" screen? Or are you going to create one reflowable version with the minimum formatting in it, to look "ok" at all sizes?

eP
This is a problem that web designers have had to deal with for a long time. They also have to deal with thr nightmare of cross browser compatibikity. They're getting better all the time and the briwsers and standards are evolving to help them. Remember the bad old days when people used spacer gifs? Uggh. Ebook designers have the advantage of building on all this work.

At this stage though, putting out ebooks not ridden with typos and formatting errors is the first hurdle. I bought a newly published book that has random line breaks in middle of paragraphs throughout.
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Old 10-22-2011, 08:43 PM   #13
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I'm also part of the couldn't care less how it looks as long as it's legible and not riddled with typos.

But I'm that way with pbooks also.

If I wanted to visually interact on an artistic level with my entertainment medium, I'd be watching a movie.
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:43 PM   #14
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I would compare typography to the kind of vehicle in which you travel, say from one city to another.
Is it a crowded bus? That would be like most badly formatted ebooks. The best you can say is that it gets you there, and you know there are lots of others going the same way.
A comfortable limousine? Like a nice hardback. But sometimes the upholstery is so comfortable you fall asleep.
An efficient train? The kind of good old typography that makes the reading just that much more fresh and memorable.

Once you have arrived does it matter that much? It depends on what you are travelling for.
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Old 10-26-2011, 07:25 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
Maybe I'm the odd duck out (and this seems likely - I am very spartan about my reading), but I really don't care that much, if we're talking about aesthetics.

Greet me with 300 pages of nothing but basic text, and naught but a number in giant Arial font for a chapter marker. I really don't care. I care about what's in the book. And what's in the book could often use some serious help.

It's not that I don't have an appreciation for design. I do. If there's anywhere I like to see good design, it's the cover. Cheesy and badly-made book covers are almost the rule, and I'd like to see that change.

It's just that once I'm in the book, I stop caring completely. And frankly, the e-publishing industry has bigger problems. They should spend all that time and money on fixing the damn typos and errors are that everywhere instead of adding pretty flourishes. I don't read flourishes.
Ditto all that. Reading a beautifully bound, artistically presented pbook is a real joy but it satisfies a very different entertainment need. I use ebooks purely to read. Take out the fluff, fix the typos, format for all reasonable font sizes, and then I'll be happy. And please be kind enough to move the presentation elements to the CSS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
You know, as a copy editor, I think I've figured out why this is happening with ebooks. And newspapers. And magazines. And everywhere else.

People editing on a screen. I'm terrible working off a screen. And as much as I'd love to go totally paperless, the fact of the matter is this: I suck at my job unless I print the thing out and have a hard copy in my hands, with my red pen.

I've tried all the software. I've tried making the font huge. I've tried just doing more run-through's. I've tried everything. Some of it helps, but none of it brings me up to par with how I work with paper. It's not the tools. It's the screen itself. I just miss stuff when I'm working with a screen. And I have met others who have said the same thing. This is apparently not just me. This is a problem with the way we interface with screens - or at least how some people do.

This is ok on a blog. It is not ok on something you expect people to pay money for.

And I am pretty sure that the sudden decline in professionalism in writing is due in large part to people editing on screens.

Print out the manuscript and edit properly, damn it!!
Ditto that too. I'm the same way. There's something about a computer screen that must outright hide errors. Once it's printed to paper, they stand out like beacons.
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