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Old 10-27-2011, 11:44 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by howyoudoin View Post
Comics and magazines are an entirely different beast to novels. They tried placing ads into novels, and the concept failed miserably. It never took off. You can't argue against decades of publishing experience. Magazines and comics would be the only formats that readers will be willing to see ads in, and they'd expect the price to reflect the decision.

I don't understand why you also insist on holding up the KSO as a supporting argument. It's not the same. A KSO is like ads on the flap of the dust jacket, or ads at the end of the book. They do not impede the actual reading experience once you've opened up a book. Ads within ebooks are a different concept and not at all comparable to the KSO model.
For even more decades novels were serialized in magazines that had ads in them.Most great SF novels published before 1950 were serialized in magazines. Again , people tend to have this rosy-colored view of the past that doesn't stand up to historical analysis.
Novels aren't the only type of ebook there can be, either. There are also short story or essay collections.
I'm quoting the KSO example because many of the same arguments were used in attacking the KSO concept before it came out and it was a big success. I think that the type of model and the way it is executed will play the biggest part in whether ads in ebooks will work. It might also depend, as you have pointed out, , on the content of the book. Short story or essay collections may be more suitable for ads than a novel.
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:49 AM   #77
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I think you nailed it. The gouging to read non ad books would force everyone to read books with ads, in the long run no consumer benefit, just a less attractive product. Besides ads in books would mostly reach people who actually read and would inevitably be inneffective.
It's not gouging to offer a full price ad free option and a lower priced ad-supported option. Such options are commonplace in retailing.
Is Amazon gouging consumers when it offers the KSO at a lower price than the regular Kindle?
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Old 10-27-2011, 11:54 AM   #78
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That's find. Then I'll pirate the clean copies.
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Old 10-27-2011, 12:38 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post
For even more decades novels were serialized in magazines that had ads in them.Most great SF novels published before 1950 were serialized in magazines. Again , people tend to have this rosy-colored view of the past that doesn't stand up to historical analysis.
Novels aren't the only type of ebook there can be, either. There are also short story or essay collections.

I'm quoting the KSO example because many of the same arguments were used in attacking the KSO concept before it came out and it was a big success. I think that the type of model and the way it is executed will play the biggest part in whether ads in ebooks will work. It might also depend, as you have pointed out, , on the content of the book. Short story or essay collections may be more suitable for ads than a novel.
Magazines have always been ad supported. Novels have not - notwithstanding the brief experiment with ads in paperbacks in the 60's, which apparently was not successful.

But regardless of the history, people will not accept ads in novels that interrupt their reading experience. They haven't historically, and I see no reason to assume that they will now.

I also don't think that there is a way to significantly defray the expenses of a book with advertising unless you use a *lot* of ads. Magazines have hundreds of ads in them, for example. I don't think a 4c discount on a book is going to encourage anyone to buy the one with ads, and I don't think that anyone will buy a book with dozens or 100+ ads.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:01 PM   #80
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It's not gouging to offer a full price ad free option and a lower priced ad-supported option. Such options are commonplace in retailing.
You're not acknowledging allinhi's point. The introduction of lower-priced, ad-supported e-books is only a first step. In time, the prices change. The ad-suported price moves toward what was once the ad-free price, and the ad-free price becomes too high for most people to consider. Most people become economically coerced to purchase the ad-supported model.

This hasn't yet happened to the KSO because it's alone in the market. Competition holds down the price of regular (ad-free) e-readers. If two-tiered pricing becomes the industry standard, then you'll see a disproportionate price increase for ad-free models.

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That's fine. Then I'll pirate the clean copies.
There's the rub. If all the industry offers is a dirty product -- or if the clean version is priced far higher than the dirty one -- many many people will opt for an illegal but clean product. If ad-supported e-books ever become an industry standard, the darknet might -- just might -- provide the competitive force to restrain the prices of the ad-free versions. The outcome would depend on how severe the lost sales were. Right now, for example, AFAIK the publishing industry's pricing is unaffected by copyright violators. (Consider that e-book prices match or exceed paperback prices.) It's a thin thread on which to hang one's hopes.


Someone will inevitably introduce ad-supported e-books. I just hope the attempt fails before it can take root and spread.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:11 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post
For even more decades novels were serialized in magazines that had ads in them.
The magazine industry is flailing. The ads aren't working like they used to, and advertisers are cutting back.

Why would they move to an untested venue where they'd have less control over how their content is viewed? (An ad that's effective on a Kindle is not necessarily effective on the iPhone Kindle app.)

Quote:
Most great SF novels published before 1950 were serialized in magazines. Again, people tend to have this rosy-colored view of the past that doesn't stand up to historical analysis.
The issue isn't, "were ads used effectively to subsidize novel sales sixty-five years ago?" Technology was different. Culture was different--buyers of a specific magazine could be reasonably assumed to fall into a known demographic range.

The issue at hand is, "can ads be used effectively today, to cut reader costs for ebooks while bringing enough revenue to the subsidizers?" It's a nice idea, and I can see advertisers, publishers, authors & readers (most of them) all wanting to find a way to make it work--but I can't think of any way of inserting ads in ebooks that (1) won't annoy readers enough to just send them pirating for ad-stripped versions AND (2) will bring enough revenue to advertisers to be worth the effort.

Mentioning vague claims of other types of advertising that have been successful in different media is useless. We know how ebooks work, how they're designed, how they're delivered; ads need to work within that framework, not "oh, someone will think of something."

Can't put an ad at the top corner of every page of an epub without rewriting the firmware in the reading devices. *Can* have a one-page ad at every chapter break... but unlike ads in magazines, it'll get seen once, for a second or two, while the person flips the page; unlike magazines, they don't have to flip past the ad every time they re-open the book. Can't expect ads to be seen in color. *Can* have dynamic ads based on user demographic info, inserted at time of purchase (or at time of reading)--if the reader is using a certain device range. Then there's the hassle of "Kindle version of ebook: $9. Kindlefire Ad-enhanced version: $6." Or, "this book is only available for download through the Kindle Fire." Riiight; that'll make authors happy.

Quote:
Novels aren't the only type of ebook there can be, either. There are also short story or essay collections.
And I can see a case for "ad at every story break." But I still can't see how that'll reliably bring in enough money to make it worth the advertisers' efforts.

The KSO shows its ads when the books are *closed.* Screensaver ads means they're seen several times, in different settings, when a person isn't focused on the story. Ads inside ebooks are just a page to flip past and never see again. If a person's concentrating on reading, they may not even be able to find the ad again if they want to. (Unless it's built into the TOC/bookmarks. Which means more costs in ebook setup; see thread on proofreading ebooks to note how much extra effort publishers are willing to put in this direction.)

Last edited by Elfwreck; 10-27-2011 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:26 PM   #82
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No Eff'n way do I want Internet (WiFi) Ad bloated books.

That does not exclude use of name brands within the story, but as others have pointed out, that can become rapidly dated.

As I see this: It's like Taxes. Once the Ad people get their foot in the door, it will be 'Just one more' ,one after another.

I subscribed to Analog SF &SF for years. IMHO Their Ad limited placement did not intrude into the reading experience.


BTW The K4 I bought is NOT the cheaper SO model.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:38 PM   #83
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Other books by the author in the front, and others from the same publisher at the back - sure. But that's not really an ad for something else so much as a catalog. Not a big deal.
Agreed.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:12 PM   #84
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I actually believe that indie authors will be the first to pioneer the use of ads in books. Let's face it, Stephen King and James Patterson have made their big money. They don't have to bother with ads in their books or discount their prices.
Indie writers are different. Many of them are looking for income any way they can. I can see indie writers offering two versions of their books - an ad-free 2.99 version for those who hate ads and an ad-supported version for 0.99 or free. There may be even a fremium model where you get the ad-supported model for free with an option to "upgrade" to the ad-free version if you like the book. It works for games and apps, why not books?
The beauty of the "links" approach is that the issue of "intrusiveness" largely disappears, so long as the authors and publishers are sensible about it. Since authors would have ultimate control, it would be win-win for authors, IMO.
I'd love to see something like this. Or something where groups of writers/artist types support each other in a similar way.

The cross promotional freedom really is almost endless.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:21 PM   #85
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No way, no how. Well, maybe if it was for work and at the end of the chapter.


I would be totally ok with the book excerpts in the back of the book - this is basicly standard in romances - but I have a lot of concern about book excerpts, too.

Dear Author had an article about "bloated ebook files" and how publishers were placing more ads for other books inside of newly published ebooks than actual content.
Yeah, the stuff you've linked to is ridiculous. I've also had one where the last 15% was promotional material, and that felt like a gyp.

I think these publishers are forgetting that ads need to be short, targeted, and grabbing. The idea is not to try and create your own home shopping network for books.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:48 PM   #86
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Magazines have always been ad supported. Novels have not - notwithstanding the brief experiment with ads in paperbacks in the 60's, which apparently was not successful.

But regardless of the history, people will not accept ads in novels that interrupt their reading experience. They haven't historically, and I see no reason to assume that they will now.

I also don't think that there is a way to significantly defray the expenses of a book with advertising unless you use a *lot* of ads. Magazines have hundreds of ads in them, for example. I don't think a 4c discount on a book is going to encourage anyone to buy the one with ads, and I don't think that anyone will buy a book with dozens or 100+ ads.

You make good points. However, novels are'nt the only form of ebook.Readers may be more amenable to ads with other types of books.
The key is whether it will adversely affect reading experience. As was mentioned above, one approach would be to put LINKS to ads, instead of actual ads in the ebook. That would be unobstrusive, and you could put in a lot of links.
Again, if this was easy to implement, it would have been done already. I think we will see some experimentation with ads soon.
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Old 10-27-2011, 03:11 PM   #87
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I didn't read the entire thread, so I might be duplicating something already said.
I don't think the choice will be ours (except the choice to buy ad-free or commercial versions -- and maybe, not even then). If it is feasible, it will be done, whatever we think about it. All I wish for, when the ads come, is that they do not blink on and off. If the ad just lies there I can ignore it, just as I do with ads in magazines.
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Old 10-27-2011, 03:41 PM   #88
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How Mutch Advertising is planned?

What will be advertised?
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:00 PM   #89
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I didn't read the entire thread, so I might be duplicating something already said.
I don't think the choice will be ours (except the choice to buy ad-free or commercial versions -- and maybe, not even then). If it is feasible, it will be done, whatever we think about it. All I wish for, when the ads come, is that they do not blink on and off. If the ad just lies there I can ignore it, just as I do with ads in magazines.
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It won't blink on & off in my readers; they don't support animated text or images.

This is one of the problems with ads in ebooks--other than the iPad's store, there's no control over how the content is read. Ads are designed to be appealing (or at least unoffensive) to be effective--and they can't be appealing if the designer doesn't know how they'll be read. (On a computer screen with full-feature CSS support? On a black-and-white no-internet e-ink reader? On a phone with a 3" screen? Through a text-to-voice reader?)

Ads can be designed for each of those, but no one ad is going to work for all of them--and the more ads (or variants of the same ads), the more nuisance factor. Cross the line into "too much" and that book drops in sales; possibly that *publisher* drops in sales.

People have been talking about ads in ebooks for years. The closest we've gotten is Wowio's PDF ads (which aren't a notable break on the price, unless you consider "free nicely-formatted PDF version of public domain works" is a discount) and the KSO, where the ads aren't tied to the specific content.
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Old 10-27-2011, 07:38 PM   #90
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The cross promotional freedom really is almost endless.
"Jack Reacher tore himself away from Keryl Raist's latest novel[link] and smoothly drew his Glock from its holster."

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