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Old 11-02-2011, 04:23 PM   #61
Keryl Raist
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While it is true that there is a lot of bad writing out there, there does seem to be a special level of bad sex scenes. I don't know if they just stick out more to me, or if I don't know enough about combat, dancing, or whatever to see the same level of problems that I often do in sex scenes.

But, I'm thinking it's probably something to do with sex scenes. After all, how many of us can think of wince inducing euphemisms in a fight scene? Brandon kicked Jack squarely in the manhood. Ummm... no. Or how about a fight scene where the tension builds and builds and then the author suddenly decides to get coy about what is actually happening? I don't think so.

There really is a special level of bad writing reserved for sex scenes.

Last edited by Keryl Raist; 11-02-2011 at 04:24 PM. Reason: added extra thought.
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Old 11-02-2011, 04:32 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Keryl Raist View Post
After all, how many of us can think of wince inducing euphemisms in a fight scene? Brandon kicked Jack squarely in the manhood. Ummm... no.

There really is a special level of bad writing reserved for sex scenes.
My all-time favorite euphemism for "penis" that was used in fanfiction:

Elfhood.

I wish I were kidding.
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Old 11-02-2011, 04:40 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Keryl Raist View Post
But, I'm thinking it's probably something to do with sex scenes. After all, how many of us can think of wince inducing euphemisms in a fight scene? Brandon kicked Jack squarely in the manhood. Ummm... no. Or how about a fight scene where the tension builds and builds and then the author suddenly decides to get coy about what is actually happening? I don't think so.

There really is a special level of bad writing reserved for sex scenes.
Maybe it's related to that stigma SLJ talked about? That an author gets so tense and so worried about offending that they unintentionally make it harder than it has to be, and in teh process become a bad writer for just that one scene.

Or maybe editors and publishers have unreasonable demands and make it more difficult than it needs to be?
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:14 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Keryl Raist View Post
After all, how many of us can think of wince inducing euphemisms in a fight scene? Brandon kicked Jack squarely in the manhood. Ummm... no. Or how about a fight scene where the tension builds and builds and then the author suddenly decides to get coy about what is actually happening? I don't think so.
And that's the problem, in a nutshell: Only sex scenes induce writers to resort to euphemisms; and they should not. As ScalyFreak points out, the stigma causes overcompensation (sex euphemism ahoy!) and the sensible rules of writing go to pot.

When I wrote my scenes, I made sure I wrote them the way I'd write any other scene: The same style, the same elements used to prompt an emotional investment in the scene, and no euphemisms... because I don't write that way. So the scenes do not seem like the work of someone else shoehorned into my story. If you can't do that... you shouldn't be writing the scene, IMO.

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Or maybe editors and publishers have unreasonable demands and make it more difficult than it needs to be?
I think that's a big part of it, too: If the writer isn't concerned about appearances, the editors and publishers are, and they force the issue. That's why I like writing for myself... no one looking over my shoulder that I have to satisfy.

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Old 11-03-2011, 12:09 PM   #65
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My all-time favorite euphemism for "penis" that was used in fanfiction:

Elfhood.


I can't believe I missed this earlier. Thank you for brightening my day and making my co-workers look at me funny. I'd be upset about the coffee I nearly choked on, but I'm too amused to care.

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I think that's a big part of it, too: If the writer isn't concerned about appearances, the editors and publishers are, and they force the issue. That's why I like writing for myself... no one looking over my shoulder that I have to satisfy.
As far as I am concerned, that is one of the biggest benefits that has come from the invention of electronic books and their growing popularity. That authors who want to have complete control over their writing and how it is presented to their readers, now have that. You can publish your book just the way you want it to be, and put your own name on it.

Of course, as with everything else when it becomes so easy that anyone can do it, then the drawback is that anyone does. It's like a herd of pigs... the herd bring a lot of benefits, but you shouldn't wonder at all the crap it produces.
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:39 PM   #66
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As far as I am concerned, that is one of the biggest benefits that has come from the invention of electronic books and their growing popularity. That authors who want to have complete control over their writing and how it is presented to their readers, now have that. You can publish your book just the way you want it to be, and put your own name on it.
Absolutely.
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Old 11-04-2011, 07:54 PM   #67
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Maybe it's related to that stigma SLJ talked about? That an author gets so tense and so worried about offending that they unintentionally make it harder than it has to be, and in teh process become a bad writer for just that one scene.

Or maybe editors and publishers have unreasonable demands and make it more difficult than it needs to be?
I don't know about the stigma aspect. I've got some adult only scenes in my book, and didn't fear offending anyone while I was writing them. Like Stephen, I didn't suddenly become a different writer, nor did my characters suddenly receive brain transplants when the sex got going.

To put it succinctly, the only thing that throbs in my book is a broken arm. There are no manhoods, elfhoods, or whatever other god-awful terms get used to avoid calling a penis a penis.

I do know that certain publishers (Harlequin springs to mind) require certain words be used, certain words not be used, and certain numbers of encounters occur, and so on and so forth. That level of constraint would have driven me bonkers.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:13 PM   #68
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I do know that certain publishers (Harlequin springs to mind) require certain words be used, certain words not be used, and certain numbers of encounters occur, and so on and so forth. That level of constraint would have driven me bonkers.
Well, that explains some of the worst sex scenes I've read.
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:32 AM   #69
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I do know that certain publishers (Harlequin springs to mind) require certain words be used, certain words not be used, and certain numbers of encounters occur, and so on and so forth. That level of constraint would have driven me bonkers.
That's not so different from writing episodic television, really. Not every writer can work within those limits, but those who can have the advantage of being able to produce on a schedule (and earn a regular paycheck).
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Old 11-10-2011, 09:38 PM   #70
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I would point out that romances & erotica are selling *amazingly* well in ebooks. That I can name, off the top of my head, a dozen romance/erotica DRM-free publishers, thriving in a market where the "big 6" publishers are screaming about losses.

Yes, I'm rather embarassed by the fact that an erotic title I released under a pen name, outsells my non-erotic titles by about 15 to 1.

As far as sex in my non-erotic works, sex plays an important role in my work, but I almost never write sex scenes, largely because I don't trust my ability to write them well. But more importantly, I write comedies, and I find writing around sex scenes (finding ways to tell you what happened without actually saying what happened) to be both funnier and more fun to write.
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:07 AM   #71
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Yes, I'm rather embarassed by the fact that an erotic title I released under a pen name, outsells my non-erotic titles by about 15 to 1.

As far as sex in my non-erotic works, sex plays an important role in my work, but I almost never write sex scenes, largely because I don't trust my ability to write them well. But more importantly, I write comedies, and I find writing around sex scenes (finding ways to tell you what happened without actually saying what happened) to be both funnier and more fun to write.
You don't trust your ability to write a sex scene well... yet, your erotic title outsells the non-erotic titles by 15-1?

Can we assume there are sex scenes in your erotic title? If so, I'd say its sales success is enough of an indication that you can write sex scenes.
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:46 AM   #72
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Thanks for the rewrite, Steve. Just downloaded from your site. I'm one of those who read Lambs Hide, Tigers Seek and never peeped. While it was enjoyable, there were some scenes that didn't quite click. I thought "these characters don't seem very believable in this scene" or, based on what I knew about a character, "why would they do that? Where did that action (or dialogue) come from?"

Let's see how well the rewrite works ...
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:00 AM   #73
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You don't trust your ability to write a sex scene well... yet, your erotic title outsells the non-erotic titles by 15-1?

Can we assume there are sex scenes in your erotic title? If so, I'd say its sales success is enough of an indication that you can write sex scenes.
Believe it or not, no there aren't any explicit sex scenes in my erotic title. Which, I believe, actually qualifies as irony.
It's written to appeal to a specific fetish, which I could depict without including actual sex.
Plus, it's a comic book, so even if it had, I wouldn't have had to actually write them if I had needed them, just depict them.

Here's a question: Where is the dividing line between erotica and porn? KDP's term's of service forbids porn, but they allow erotica. They allowed the title above to be published, but a similar title that was slightly more explicit was blocked.
I'm just not sure where the limits are.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:07 AM   #74
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Here's a question: Where is the dividing line between erotica and porn? KDP's term's of service forbids porn, but they allow erotica. They allowed the title above to be published, but a similar title that was slightly more explicit was blocked.
I'm just not sure where the limits are.

We could answer that in general, but that really does not matter for the specific case of KDP because it is where THEY put the line. In my experience ever store defines that line differently.

IMO in Erotica the point is the story and the sex/etc is a way of telling it. In porn the point is the sex, and the story is there as a lame excuse but I do not read either so that might not be a valid line.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:51 AM   #75
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Believe it or not, no there aren't any explicit sex scenes in my erotic title. Which, I believe, actually qualifies as irony.
Not at all. There is a lot more to eroticism than just rubbing body parts together.
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