Orson Scott Card

[TGS]

Originally Posted by Quexos

But men are not supposed to do it with other men in nature's design I mean. Period.

Perhaps you are stupid as well as disgusting.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by RichL

Mr. Card has, and preaches three beliefs which I actively fight against. There is no way on earth I would ever donate to an organization espousing any of his beliefs so why in the world would I support him by buying his books?

Am I alone in seeing a fundamental contradiction between claiming to believe in the idea of free speech, and punishing anyone who says something that you disagree with?

If you believe that someone's views are wrong, engage in reasoned dialogue with them and show them why they should change their views.

[RichL]

Ron

Homosexuality is rife in the 'natural' world. It is found in monkeys, mice, squirrels and etc. Amongst other things homosexuality, like increased violence in crowded conditions, reduces population. Yup, it's a very 'natural' condition.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by HarryT

For me it would be, yes. Voltaire is supposed to have said (but actually didn't) "I disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it". It's the right to say unpopular things that need defending; if you're saying "I'm going to punish you for what you say" then you're effectively suppressing the right to free speech, in my view.

That's giving too much power to the bigots and the fascists - the freedom of speech is not freedom from the consequences of speech.

I absolutely defend Mr. Card's right to say and publish whatever he wishes. I also absolutely defend the rights of those who disagree with him.

You apparently want to defend the right of bigotry, but not the right to disagree with bigotry. So who is now trampling on free speech rights?

Once again, the only person on this thread who has expressed the desire for anyone to shut up is you.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by TGS

Perhaps you are stupid as well as disgusting.

Well said.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Am I alone in seeing a fundamental contradiction between claiming to believe in the idea of free speech, and punishing anyone who says something that you disagree with?

If you believe that someone's views are wrong, engage in reasoned dialogue with them and show them why they should change their views.

So not actively supporting someone is punishing them?

I don't want to buy Mr. Card's books anymore - I don't want to go to his house and spank him.

My desire to avoid Mr. Card and all his works is based on Mr. Card's own actions. Once again, not for what he THINKS but for what he DOES.

If you believe you can reason with a homophobic bigot, go ahead.

Too many years of trying to reason with my white supremacist dad have stripped me of that illusion.

Societal pressure is our only hope, really.

I still wonder, why the heck are you defending this guy? He's got a much bigger platform and a louder mouth than anyone here. He doesn't need you defending his 'right' to sell books to people who don't like him.

EDIT: I also support the right of the Westboro Baptist Church to engage in peaceful protest, although I personally find them vile. According to you, I seem now to be obligated to send them money as well. Nothing doing.

[Quexos]

If insults is the best you can come up with, I'd strongly advise the gay community to find support somewhere else cause you are not really helping their cause, buddy !

Originally Posted by TGS

Perhaps you are stupid as well as disgusting.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by Quexos

But men are not supposed to do it with other men in nature's design I mean. Period.

You forgot In My Humble Opinion. Which of course it is.

[jgaiser]

I sincerely believe that I should of posted this is Politics and Religion. Probably should be moved there as we now seem to be in that territory.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Am I alone in seeing a fundamental contradiction between claiming to believe in the idea of free speech, and punishing anyone who says something that you disagree with?

If you believe that someone's views are wrong, engage in reasoned dialogue with them and show them why they should change their views.

It's a difficult line I will admit - how would those of us who want to exercise our right to financially penalise Mr Card for his views feel if he wanted to penalise us for our views by not selling his books to us, for example*. Ideally, I agree that dialogue is probably very useful, but if I want to do something now because my feelings are such that I have to register my disapprobation, then personally boycotting his products, and even seeking to persuade others to do the same, seems to me to be a freedom as central and essential as Mr Card's freedom of expression. Sometimes you just have to suck up the contradictions!



*Personally I could not care less about Orson Scott Card's books, but you get the point.

[Quexos]

In my humble opinion, God does not exist or the economy is crashing cause of the way it is handled, but man on man is against nature just as 1 + 1 equals 2, or should I say 1+1=2 In my humble opinion

Originally Posted by jgaiser

You forgot In My Humble Opinion. Which of course it is.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by Quexos

In my humble opinion, God does not exist or the economy is crashing cause of the way it is handled, but man on man is against nature just as 1 + 1 equals 2, or should I say 1+1=1 In my humble opinion

You may want to edit that post so that it makes even a modicum of sense (although your homophobia is coming across just fine).

[Quexos]

I just did thank you.
And you may want to try to find an argument to counter me instead of just agreeing to someone else's insults, which only strengthens my point.
So far I'm only insulted but nobody seems to be capable of saying "you are wrong because xxxxxxx"
Which speaks books.

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

You may want to edit that post so that it makes even a modicum of sense (although your homophobia is coming across just fine).

[RichL]

Harry T

There is a large difference between punishing and not supporting. I am anti theist, should I donate to churches to spread beliefs I disagree with? I am anti Neo-Nazi should I donate to their cause to help them spread a belief I disagree with? By purchasing Cards books I not only tacitly support his views I monetarily support his ability to preach them.

In my view, without all the legal fiddle faddle, free speech means that I need to allow the person to speak not that I am required to monetarily support his speaking.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by Quexos

I just did thank you.
And you may want to try to find an argument to counter me instead of just agreeing to someone else's insults, which only strengthens my point.
So far I'm only insulted but nobody seems to be capable of saying "you are wrong because xxxxxxx"
Which speaks books.

Perhaps you could explain why you believe it is wrong?