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Old 12-14-2011, 07:06 AM   #46
Xoanon
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I thought the first three books are amongst the best fantasy I have ever read and the last two languish amongst the worst. I've never seen such a big drop-of in quality in any genre.
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Old 12-14-2011, 07:38 AM   #47
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3 is King ?

I think this theory was first propounded by Diap - three is usually the right number for a "continuous" series - if it's any good, that is.

Perfect example = Mr Tolkein's opus.
Perfect rebuttal = Harry Potter.

Pefect proof of "3 is A Good Thing" = George Martin's meander.


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Old 12-14-2011, 08:01 AM   #48
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I think this theory was first propounded by Diap - three is usually the right number for a "continuous" series - if it's any good, that is.
Anything over three will invariably suffer from writing diseases such as: filleritis, overwriteis, lemon cake obsession, and if-I-play-this-right-I-can-milk-it-for-the-rest-of-my-life-itis*.

I'm starting a charity to help fund research into cures for these debilitating maladies. A small portion of the proceeds from every stand-alone fantasy novel purchase will be donated to that research. Please give generously.

Together... we can stop this in its tracks.


* But, the first two have been known to afflict certain duologies and trilogies, as well.
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:11 AM   #49
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Uh oh. I read the first three books this year and haven't gotten around to reading books 4 and 5 yet. But the first three books are so amazing! Are books 4 and 5 really that awful?
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:41 AM   #50
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Are books 4 and 5 really that awful?
Only if you consider having the plot basically tread water for two whole (and massive) books awful.

Seriously though, George is a great writer. There's no denying that. Some of his characters are the best I've read, bar none. He's just come unfocused. He dropped the reins. But I'd love it if he was able to pick them back up in time to salvage the series. As it stands now, I don't see him even being able to finish in two more books (originally planned for three and later bumped to seven). It'll get expanded again to eight or nine before it's all said and done. And if that happens, then Daniel Abraham will probably have to "Sanderson" the finale for George.

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Old 12-14-2011, 10:54 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
As it stands now, I don't see him even being able to finish in two more books (originally planned for three and later bumped to seven). It'll get expanded again to eight or nine before it's all said and done. And if that happens, then Daniel Abraham will probably have to "Sanderson" the finale for George.
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Old 12-14-2011, 12:27 PM   #52
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Health warning......

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Anything over three will invariably suffer from writing diseases such as: filleritis, overwriteis, lemon cake obsession, and if-I-play-this-right-I-can-milk-it-for-the-rest-of-my-life-itis*.
It can infect readers as well don't forget.
I found myself eventually succumbing to the "I-can't-go-on-any-more-I-don't-even-know-who-I-am-now-so-where's-the-scotch-for-God's-sake-I-give-up" syndrome.....

I'm much better now though, I found the cure.

Little button - DELETE.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:05 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Anything over three will invariably suffer from writing diseases such as: filleritis, overwriteis, lemon cake obsession, and if-I-play-this-right-I-can-milk-it-for-the-rest-of-my-life-itis*.
What, exactly, is the "lemon cake obsession"?

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Originally Posted by tecweston View Post
Uh oh. I read the first three books this year and haven't gotten around to reading books 4 and 5 yet. But the first three books are so amazing! Are books 4 and 5 really that awful?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Only if you consider having the plot basically tread water for two whole (and massive) books awful.
Pretty much what DD said. Basically, it's sort of like what happened with The Wheel of Time (I wanna say books 7-9...?), in that the author either has decided to milk it, has lost the plot and is just filling pages so he has *something*, or has reached a point where he is clueless to the fact that not every side-story, sub-sub-plot, and various other minutiae that he has in head need to be transferred to paper.

I suspect that in both cases, part of the blame can certainly be laid at the door of their respective editors. It's their job to leave pointless fluff on the cutting room floor, but it's quite clear that the editors in these cases are either too close to the subject to be objective and critical any more or became more interested in cashing in their share of the inevitably large cheque.

Basically, read the first 3 novels, then head over to Wiki or something and read up on the plot summary of the next two, and you'll be ready for the next installment (in 7 years).

Quote:
And if that happens, then Daniel Abraham will probably have to "Sanderson" the finale for George.
That's the fear...

By the by, any particular reason you mention Daniel Abraham? Randomly, or is there reason to suspect he will be the one to take over should the need arise?
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:42 PM   #54
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What, exactly, is the "lemon cake obsession"?
Lemoncakes are mentioned repeatedly throughout the novels. It's a bit of a running joke among fans and detractors alike.

Quote:
By the by, any particular reason you mention Daniel Abraham? Randomly, or is there reason to suspect he will be the one to take over should the need arise?
When pressed into a corner (and it was very hypothetical), I believe George mentioned once that he thought an author like Daniel would be able to do the job, should the need ever arise. How serious he was... who's to say?

Abraham is writing a science fiction series (The Expanse) with GRRM's assistant Ty Franck under the pen name James S. A. Corey.
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Old 12-14-2011, 03:37 PM   #55
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Well I did read a book called "The Particular Sadness of Lemon Cake" and it was TERRIBLE! But it doesn't prove the theory, because it was a stand-alone novel.

eP
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:28 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Only if you consider having the plot basically tread water for two whole (and massive) books awful.

Seriously though, George is a great writer. There's no denying that. Some of his characters are the best I've read, bar none. He's just come unfocused. He dropped the reins. But I'd love it if he was able to pick them back up in time to salvage the series. As it stands now, I don't see him even being able to finish in two more books (originally planned for three and later bumped to seven). It'll get expanded again to eight or nine before it's all said and done. And if that happens, then Daniel Abraham will probably have to "Sanderson" the finale for George.
"Sanderson" is now a verb?
As I've said, I really do think that GRRM lost the plot after ASOS. He should have gone with a 5 or even 10 year gap and covered the events in AFFC in flashbacks. But he did what he did and now we have ADWD.
I've held off buying ADWD-in part because I was hoping the price would go down and in part because I feared that I would be disappointed. I'm going to go ahead and buy it now because I have a long plane ride coming up. I hope it will be a good read.
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Old 12-22-2011, 08:56 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer View Post
Only if you consider having the plot basically tread water for two whole (and massive) books awful.

Seriously though, George is a great writer. There's no denying that. Some of his characters are the best I've read, bar none. He's just come unfocused. He dropped the reins. But I'd love it if he was able to pick them back up in time to salvage the series. As it stands now, I don't see him even being able to finish in two more books (originally planned for three and later bumped to seven). It'll get expanded again to eight or nine before it's all said and done. And if that happens, then Daniel Abraham will probably have to "Sanderson" the finale for George.
I don't really consider the plot treading water for two whole books. A heck of a lot happens, especially in ADwD. You "could" say that about Feast, but with Feast, it's more of an issue that the book is burning its pages on the non-popular characters - no Tyrion, Jon, Arya, etc. Plenty happens - just not about the people who everyone wants to know about the most.

Dance I thought was great, minus spending way too much time on the Dany plotline.
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Old 12-22-2011, 10:00 AM   #58
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Dance I thought was great, minus spending way too much time on the Dany plotline.
That's the plot that's treading water. Dany and the Dragons need to be hauling their asses to The Seven Kingdoms to get this damn war started already. It's been brewing for five books for cripes sake.
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:58 PM   #59
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That's the plot that's treading water. Dany and the Dragons need to be hauling their asses to The Seven Kingdoms to get this damn war started already. It's been brewing for five books for cripes sake.
Right, just because the plot isn't going anywhere doesn't mean nothing happens. That's exactly what is so frustrating, for me anyways. He introduces all sorts of extra characters I don't really care about, doing things that I don't really care about instead of telling the story I want to hear. Then there's also his tendency to cliffhanger his readers for years at a time. As someone said upthread, he's a fabulous writer, and for that reason the stalled progress is doubly annoying.
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Old 12-22-2011, 01:35 PM   #60
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i finished book 5 a few weeks ago.
i read the whole series and really enjoyed all of the books but sometimes found myself wondering who the hell was i reading about and who was this character?
however the books are very good,but GRRM is not shy about killing his guys and girls.

BOOM just like that, dead and these are some great characters. hope he replaces them with more.

cheers,mick
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