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Old 08-07-2011, 01:33 PM   #16
fjtorres
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The functionality of clicking a 'Store' button rather than opening Safari yourself? How what sort of financial recompense do you think that massive loss of functionality is worth?
Judging by most class action suits, about $1 per customer and $50 million for the lawyers.

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Old 08-07-2011, 02:11 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post

In the same way, there really was no business case for Apple allowing booksellers to sell millions of dollars worth of books free of cost on their platform. After all, let's face it, none of those retailers allow Apple or any other retailer to sell on their platforms. Apple was always likely to try to get a cut of that revenue that was coming from the market they created. When that didn't work, they settled for giving their bookstore an advantage. In the end, that was the least inconvenient outcome. We will have to settle for that, but hey, it could have been worse.
This is just wrong. *Of course* there is a business case for Apple to not charge for e-books bought through Amazon and others. The business case is that it makes the iPad better and brings in more customers. This was Apple's policy until recently, and it seemed to work fine. It's also the policy of Android tablets. And it's also how computers, including macs, work.

The fact that you can identify reasons for Apple to have done what they did does not at all mean that this was the *only* viable approach. And, in fact, it was a stupid approach because there was *no way* that it would be successful. Amazon has the best profit margins in the bookselling business, and they are at about 5%. Demanding 30% was never going to be successful. *Never*.

I am also extremely skeptical that this will help iBooks at all - most people with iPads use the Kindle app to read on, and I don't see this changing anytime soon...particularly since I don't know many people who buy from the app anyway.

I don't think that it will harm Apple overmuch either, as I don't think many people buy an iPad to read on, though.
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:43 PM   #18
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I don't have an iPad and in fact haven't had an Apple computer since about 1993, so can someone please put me right if I've got it wrong, because I'd quite like to get a tablet some time in the next 12 months and was vaguely thinking of an iPad.

Here's what I think it would give me. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
  1. It's a nice platform for a huge variety of apps, mostly the work of third parties.
  2. Basically, it works like a laptop without a lid but with some bells and whistles.
  3. I can use it to browse wherever I please on the web without extra charge from Apple.
  4. I can, if I feel so inclined, use the browser to go to an Amazon website, download Kindle for Mac (or some such) and buy ebooks for Kindle, all without extra payment to Apple.

If that is correct, I don't think I'd be too worried about iBooks, unless Apple also bombards iPad owners with lots of publicity about iThis and iThat.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:15 PM   #19
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[*]I can, if I feel so inclined, use the browser to go to an Amazon website, download Kindle for Mac (or some such) and buy ebooks for Kindle, all without extra payment to Apple.
The issue is how to get the book from the purchase-point to your iPad for reading: can you download it from the browser and then read it on your Kindle app? Or do you open the Kindle app, find it there because it's now in your account, and that's fine--but when you're searching for new ebooks, you need to close your ebook reader, open the browser, navigate to Amazon, search & buy there, then close that app & re-open the Kindle app to read it?

I don't know the details. I know that any impediment to purchase = less purchases, and that for some ebook retailers, the apps could be set to only allow viewing of books purchased through the app itself. Those can maybe be rewritten--or maybe not, depending on how the iOS deals with download & file storage.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:24 PM   #20
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I am hoping that people realize that Apple is trying to stifle the other media outlets and don't buy a damn thing that gives Apple any revenue for eBooks, magazines, and newspapers. I want to see iBooks go away. I want to see Apple not get 30% from anyone for doing nothing.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
The issue is how to get the book from the purchase-point to your iPad for reading: can you download it from the browser and then read it on your Kindle app? Or do you open the Kindle app, find it there because it's now in your account, and that's fine--but when you're searching for new ebooks, you need to close your ebook reader, open the browser, navigate to Amazon, search & buy there, then close that app & re-open the Kindle app to read it?
You always did. You could never buy books through the Kindle app, you always bought them from the website in Safari (same as the Android Kindle app). The only difference is that previously there was a Store option in the Kindle app which would open Safari at amazon.com for you, now you do it for yourself. Buying books and having them appear in the Kindle app works the same as it did before.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:55 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Graham View Post
And Handspring Treos were available from 2002, running third party Palm OS apps. They caused a fair bit of interest at the time. Certainly enough to come to the notice of the product developers at Apple.

Graham
I still have an old Handspring Visor Edge. The docking station for it is as big as a stack of three netbooks, and the contrast is such that I never thought to look for a reading app.

Those weren't phones too though. When I got the HTC I had a convergence device.
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:51 PM   #23
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Yes, of course they can... because there are no other tablets, operating systems for tablets and content sources other than Apple and nobody can put anything on Apple equipment but Apple either...

My Android tablet won't work now Apple have setup their software etc...
Well, I'm glad at least you found your comments witty.

My question had to do with the aspect of whether Apple's move could be considered anti-competitive; nothing to do with making lawyers rich or buying an iPad (which I have no desire to do). And the existence of other OSes doesn't exclude the possibility of anti-competitive behaviour.

Microsoft wasn't the only company with an OS around, but they were sued because they were taking advantage of their market dominance. That was the point I made; I assure you, you are by no means the only human on the planet who has brilliantly figured out that there are alternatives to the iPad. Thanks for not reading the post before replying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fjtorres View Post
On antitrust grounds it won't go far, though:
- Apple's 19% share of the smartphone market is hardly the stuff of monopolies.
- On the tablet side it is much too early to crown anybody, much less Apple. Their 60% market share is only going down as competitors get ther act together and the buying public gets a feel for what pads and tablets can and (especially) can't do.

Restraint of trade? Yes, that could fly and not depend on market share.
But it would have to be Amazon or B&N that sues and they actually benefit from the policy, or Kobo or the smaller ebookstores that are actually damaged by the Apple policy. However, the fact that Apple "merely" changed the interpretation of the rules makes success there far from likely.
A much more sensible response. Thanks, fjtorres. I must say I'm surprised by those figures. The 19% for iPhone makes sense, but I would have assumed the iPad had a much larger share.

Supposedly, they've sold over 25 million units as of June 2011; since no other tablet manufacturer has really bragged about significant sales figures, I figured they didn't have much to brag about. If I had been asked to hazard a guess, I would have said 85-90%. But you're right - a mere 60% share, particularly if it's declining due to increased competition, is not enough for it to be considered anywhere close to a monopoly.

Last edited by afa; 08-07-2011 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:59 PM   #24
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I still have an old Handspring Visor Edge. The docking station for it is as big as a stack of three netbooks, and the contrast is such that I never thought to look for a reading app.

Those weren't phones too though. When I got the HTC I had a convergence device.
The Visor Edges weren't phones (although you could turn them into one with the Springboard module), but the Treos were. Like you, I was providing an example of a smartphone earlier than the iPhone that ran third-party apps. Obviously Apple upped the ante considerably, but the precursors were there.

I did actually read some books on my old monochrome Palm PDAs, but it really took off for me with the Palm T/X.

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Old 08-07-2011, 05:03 PM   #25
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A much more sensible response. Thanks, fjtorres. I must say I'm surprised by those figures. The 19% for iPhone makes sense, but I would have assumed the iPad had a much larger share.
The 60% figure is coming from recent reports of iPad vs Android shipments rather than sales. While there have been some notable successes (Asus Transformer, original Galaxy Tab) my impression is that most of the Android tablets are proving to be slower sellers than the iPad, so I would guess that the iPad share of market sales probably is up closer to 85%.

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Old 08-07-2011, 05:22 PM   #26
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I disagree strongly - what if Microsoft started charging 30% for everything bought through a PC? *Everyone* would be screaming bloody murder.

Why is the iPad different? It's just a flat computer.
Because you have the option of purchasing other computers.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:25 PM   #27
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you're right - a mere 60% share, particularly if it's declining due to increased competition, is not enough for it to be considered anywhere close to a monopoly.
But just some percentage of market share isn't the only criteria for anti-trust investigation.

Apple has had 75-80% of the MP3 player market for years. But no one found enough evidence they got that share through non-competitive behavior. I doubt anyone would argue that they don't have a monopoly on that market though.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:27 PM   #28
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  1. It's a nice platform for a huge variety of apps, mostly the work of third parties.
  2. Basically, it works like a laptop without a lid but with some bells and whistles.
  3. I can use it to browse wherever I please on the web without extra charge from Apple.
  4. I can, if I feel so inclined, use the browser to go to an Amazon website, download Kindle for Mac (or some such) and buy ebooks for Kindle, all without extra payment to Apple.

If that is correct, I don't think I'd be too worried about iBooks, unless Apple also bombards iPad owners with lots of publicity about iThis and iThat.
You are correct.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:49 PM   #29
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You are correct.
Thank you.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:51 PM   #30
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Because you have the option of purchasing other computers.
You have the option of purchasing other tablets, too.

That doesn't answer the question - why would it be bad for MS to charge 30% of all Internet sales, but it's not bad for Apple to charge 30% of the same sales for doing absolutely nothing?

Why are the rules different for Steve Jobs? Why is he special?
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