Register Guidelines E-Books Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   MobileRead Forums > Miscellaneous > Lounge

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-04-2007, 02:55 PM   #16
Steven Lyle Jordan
Grand Sorcerer
Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Steven Lyle Jordan's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,482
Karma: 5171130
Join Date: Jan 2006
Device: none
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Seems 100% certain to me that she's guilty. Equally, however, I think it's ludicrous to try and claim a million $ in damages, or whatever it is they're asking for. The punishment should fit the crime. Yes, it was a stupid thing to do, but should it be something which financially ruins you for life? I don't think so. I don't know what would be a reasonable punishment - perhaps $20,000 or something like that? Enough to seriously hurt and set an example to others, but not enough to ruin someone.
From AP:
Richard Gabriel, the lead attorney for six companies that sued Thomas, didn't ask jurors to award a particular dollar amount or to find Thomas willfully infringed on copyrights.

"I only ask that you consider that the need for deterrence here is great," he said.

With his mention of deterrence, Gabriel wants to set a serious example here. I think he does want to ruin her, and the RIAA is making clear that they will continue to sue others. The implication is clear: "If we catch you, you are so screwed."
Steven Lyle Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 03:00 PM   #17
NatCh
Gizmologist
NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
NatCh's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,605
Karma: 926222
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN
Device: Nook STGR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jordan View Post
I understand that, as of this morning, the instruction has been changed: Simply making the files available DOES violate the copyright owners' exclusive right to distribution. "If there's an index and something behind it, that's distribution," argued Gabriel.
That makes better sense to me anyway: the actions of the person posting posting the files isn't materially changed just because someone else does or doesn't do something else after the fact.

Just because no one takes it, doesn't mean you're not trying to distribute it. Posting a file for download seems to me to demonstrate a rather indisputable intent to allow others access to it whether any one actually accessed it or not -- what exactly would that be if it's not distribution?
NatCh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 03:30 PM   #18
bingle
Addict
bingle has a complete set of Star Wars action figures.bingle has a complete set of Star Wars action figures.bingle has a complete set of Star Wars action figures.bingle has a complete set of Star Wars action figures.bingle has a complete set of Star Wars action figures.
 
Posts: 273
Karma: 499
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Francisco
Device: Sony Reader
Quote:
Originally Posted by NatCh View Post
Just because no one takes it, doesn't mean you're not trying to distribute it. Posting a file for download seems to me to demonstrate a rather indisputable intent to allow others access to it whether any one actually accessed it or not -- what exactly would that be if it's not distribution?
Actually, the "intent to distribute" argument was recently viewed skeptically by a judge in another case. The fact of the matter is that the law only penalizes actual infringement - there's no codified crime of "attempted distribution".
bingle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 03:32 PM   #19
Steven Lyle Jordan
Grand Sorcerer
Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Steven Lyle Jordan's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,482
Karma: 5171130
Join Date: Jan 2006
Device: none
I'd say the RIAA is going for the clearest definition of wrongdoing, and seeking to punish that, without worrying about exactly what was distributed or at how much of a loss. Smart, from their standpoint, since they can't provide evidence that backs up any actual distribution claims or dollars lost.
Steven Lyle Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 03:42 PM   #20
delphidb96
Wizard
delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.delphidb96 ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Posts: 3,000
Karma: 300001
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Citrus Heights, California
Device: TWO Kindle 2s, one each Bookeen Cybook Gen3, Sony PRS-500, Axim X51V
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jordan View Post
I'd say the RIAA is going for the clearest definition of wrongdoing, and seeking to punish that, without worrying about exactly what was distributed or at how much of a loss. Smart, from their standpoint, since they can't provide evidence that backs up any actual distribution claims or dollars lost.
Steve,

Substitute 'broadest definition' for 'clearest definition' and I'd agree with your post completely.

Derek
delphidb96 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 04:26 PM   #21
NatCh
Gizmologist
NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.NatCh ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
NatCh's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,605
Karma: 926222
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN
Device: Nook STGR
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingle View Post
The fact of the matter is that the law only penalizes actual infringement - there's no codified crime of "attempted distribution".
Exactly, but in this case, the posting of the material is effectively the distribution. Whether or not anyone actually downloads it doesn't affect the fact that the poster deliberately posted a file where it could be downloaded. If the file were never posted, it couldn't be downloaded. That's why I see the posting itself as the defining act of "distribution."

That's what I was trying to get at ... rather clumsily, as it happened.
NatCh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 07:07 PM   #22
nekokami
fruminous edugeek
nekokami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.nekokami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.nekokami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.nekokami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.nekokami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.nekokami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.nekokami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.nekokami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.nekokami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.nekokami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.nekokami ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
nekokami's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,745
Karma: 551260
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Northeast US
Device: iPad, eBw 1150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jordan View Post
With his mention of deterrence, Gabriel wants to set a serious example here. I think he does want to ruin her, and the RIAA is making clear that they will continue to sue others. The implication is clear: "If we catch you, you are so screwed."
See, I really think this isn't what the civil courts are for. They get misused this way, especially in the US, but if they can't prove any damages, I really don't think they ought to be able to fine her anything. (Though she could get whacked with their court expenses, which would be bad enough.)

If the RIAA thinks file sharing is bad enough to be treated as a criminal offense, they need to lobby for the laws to read that way. Then they can ask for people to be charged by the state with crimes and put in jail or whatever. But I doubt they'd ever get such a law passed, because they'd have to show that filesharing is actually harming the community, which so far no one has been able to demonstrate.

Just to be clear, I am all in favor of creators being fully compensated for their work. I disagree with some over whether they deserve to be compensated multiple times per work per customer due to format changes or whatever, but I do believe strongly in paying authors and musicians (and editors and sound engineers, for that matter), and I've been putting my money toward the cause for two score years now. I just don't think this litigation approach is going to work any better than the other nonsense that's been tried toward getting money from customers to creators. One person will be financially ruined (and unable to ever pay any artist for any work for years, likely). Other folks who want to share files will just switch to tools with better anonymity. Nothing else will change.
nekokami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 07:25 AM   #23
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 64,023
Karma: 42472847
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: PW2, iPad Retina Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, Kobo H2O, N7
I see that this woman has, not surprisingly been found guilty, but I do believe that the fine of US$222,000 is rather excessive for the crime. I suppose, though, that the idea is to send a clear signal to other "file sharers".
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 07:40 AM   #24
HappyMartin
Martin Kristiansen
HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HappyMartin ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HappyMartin's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,456
Karma: 6748738
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Johannesburg
Device: Kindle International Ipad 2
Am I out of line or being unreasonable to think that it sends a clear signal to only one party involved in the crime? Did no one download any files, i.e. receive stolen goods?
HappyMartin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 08:06 AM   #25
Steven Lyle Jordan
Grand Sorcerer
Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Steven Lyle Jordan's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,482
Karma: 5171130
Join Date: Jan 2006
Device: none
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
I see that this woman has, not surprisingly been found guilty, but I do believe that the fine of US$222,000 is rather excessive for the crime. I suppose, though, that the idea is to send a clear signal to other "file sharers".
According to the reporting on News.com, the RIAA "may not require Thomas to pay the full amount" of her fine. Is this another example of making Thomas a very public scapegoat, to scare everyone else, then privately let her off the hook? (Not that that would work, with today's news services. In fact, the mere rumor of such an action has probably already empowered file sharers to ignore the decision.) If so, it makes a mockery of the decision, and the trial.
Steven Lyle Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 08:18 AM   #26
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 64,023
Karma: 42472847
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: PW2, iPad Retina Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, Kobo H2O, N7
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMartin View Post
Am I out of line or being unreasonable to think that it sends a clear signal to only one party involved in the crime? Did no one download any files, i.e. receive stolen goods?
I guess it makes more sense to go after the uploaders rather than the downloaders. If you stop uploads, then downloads also stop. Rather like (in this country at least) the police really aren't interested in people who use drugs for personal use; they go after the dealers - the people who sell the drugs. Get caught with a gram of heroin and you'll get a police caution (ie a "telling off"), but get caught with a kg and you'll spend 20 years in prison.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 08:23 AM   #27
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 64,023
Karma: 42472847
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: PW2, iPad Retina Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, Kobo H2O, N7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jordan View Post
According to the reporting on News.com, the RIAA "may not require Thomas to pay the full amount" of her fine.
Do they have any say in the matter now that she's been found guilty? In this country, once a court has set a fine, it's the court system which enforces payment, not the original plaintiff.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 08:57 AM   #28
Steven Lyle Jordan
Grand Sorcerer
Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Steven Lyle Jordan's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,482
Karma: 5171130
Join Date: Jan 2006
Device: none
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
Do they have any say in the matter now that she's been found guilty? In this country, once a court has set a fine, it's the court system which enforces payment, not the original plaintiff.
Don't know... but the RIAA was obviously pulling the strings on this case, so if a fine "magically" gets reduced somewhere, we'll know who was responsible for it.

I think I've figured out the real impact of this case. The decision was based on the fact that the prosecution couldn't absolutely prove that Thomas did the deed... however, it was her computer, with her account, in her house, and therefore she as the owner of the household was ultimately responsible. For $220,000. Coincidentally, a figure pretty close to the average price of a home in America.

Who do you think is going to get that message? Parents. Every one that hears about this is going to storm into their child's room and say, "I'm not going to lose this house because of your illegally sharing files! I want to see what's on your PC right now, and you're removing all file-sharing software, or else!" So the RIAA manages to appoint finance-fearing parents as their watchdogs, saving them the trouble of chasing after kids.

And the adult file-sharers now have a dollar figure (or a concept--a second mortgage) to refer to, if they get fingered, which will guarantee that in 90% of cases their lives will be ruined. Those who have more than 3 brain cells to rub together will severely curb their file-sharing activities.
Steven Lyle Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 09:06 AM   #29
HarryT
eBook Enthusiast
HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.HarryT ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
HarryT's Avatar
 
Posts: 64,023
Karma: 42472847
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Device: PW2, iPad Retina Mini, iPhone 4, MS Surface Pro, Kobo H2O, N7
I strongly suspect that you're absolutely right there, Steve.

Wow - the average price of a house is only $220,000 in the US? I wish you could buy a house for that here .

Obviously the message that the RIAA want to go out from this is "ignore our warning letter at your peril". People are probably now going to think that paying $2000 (or whatever) is an easy get-off after reading about this court case.
HarryT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 09:14 AM   #30
Steven Lyle Jordan
Grand Sorcerer
Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.Steven Lyle Jordan ought to be getting tired of karma fortunes by now.
 
Steven Lyle Jordan's Avatar
 
Posts: 8,482
Karma: 5171130
Join Date: Jan 2006
Device: none
Actually, the average price is just a bit more... over $264,000 according to Federal statistics... but close enough.
Steven Lyle Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
B.E.R.T. Blog2Epub Ripping Tool bazu ePub 0 08-27-2010 03:16 AM
Ripping my hair out over Avantgo Erin91 Bookeen 2 09-20-2008 09:11 AM
Ripping pbooks - should we have a wiki page? moz Workshop 6 03-18-2008 06:41 AM
More on ripping CDs Nate the great News 10 12-13-2007 12:03 PM
Ripping a CD you own is STEALING... Nate the great Lounge 189 10-15-2007 08:43 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:27 PM.


MobileRead.com is a privately owned, operated and funded community.