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Old 10-08-2007, 12:55 PM   #91
HarryT
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Originally Posted by wgrimm View Post
Well, putting a top-loading case onto a playstation is just about as easy as copying a cd. If you can use a screwdriver, you can replace the cover. a 6-year-old can do it.
Yes, I completely accept that what you say is true, but the issue is that you still have to take the conscious decision to do it.

One might similarly say that there's nothing technically difficult about stealing cars - 10 year olds can (and do) do it. The fact that it's not difficult to do doesn't mean that everyone goes around doing it; you have to make a deliberate decision to do it, knowing full well that you're breaking the law by doing so.

The fundamental problem, as I've said before, is that stealing intellectual property (computer software, CDs, DVDs, etc) appears to have somehow become "socially acceptable", even "admired" perhaps, among at least a portion of the younger generation today. When I was a kid, me and all my friends used to go out and buy "45" RPM records virtually every week, and use a significant part of our "pocket money" to do so. Many kids today seem to think that they have some "God-given right" to download for free whatever music they wish, rather than paying for it. And that's despite the fact that stores such as iTunes make it very easy to buy music legally, and it prices which are far lower in real terms than we used to pay for our records back in the '70s.
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Old 10-08-2007, 01:02 PM   #92
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My point is not that it defeats the serious pirate, but that it prevents the type of "casual piracy" that's all too easy, even for the person who would probably regard themselves as basically honest, that you get with CDs, say. It's so easy to run off a copy of a CD these days.

In order to "chip" a Playstation, OTOH, you have to deliberately set out with the intent to break the law; it's not something anyone does "accidentally".
Harry, based on this statement, I suppose you would not replace your own Sony Reader's battery but would pay Sony to do it since, 1) it is not easy to do and 2) you'd be cheating Sony out of their fair profit.

Personally I do not hold with piracy (of any kind). This includes the "legal" piracy that industries do when they restrict my rights to do with property I purchased any thing I want to.

Some here have said that if we didn't want to put up with DRM we could just not purchase anything with DRM. Using that paradigm, if the entertainment didn't want to put up with piracy, they could just not sell entertainment. I'm sure you'd agree that does not make any sense.

IMO it is immoral for industry to sell me a crippled product that they have purposely crippled, especially when they either hide the fact in the small print or don't even bother to tell me like Sony's rootkit which was illegal. Sauce for the goose/sauce for the gander.
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Old 10-08-2007, 01:12 PM   #93
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It's not enough to simply refuse to purchase products with DRM, one also has to purchase products without it.
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Old 10-08-2007, 01:15 PM   #94
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It's not enough to simply refuse to purchase products with DRM, one also has to purchase products without it.
That's a decision that we all have to take individually. As I've said before, DRM doesn't particularly bother me one way or another. Obviously I'd prefer that it didn't exist, but I fully understand why many publishers feel it necessary to use it.
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Old 10-08-2007, 01:22 PM   #95
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Harry, based on this statement, I suppose you would not replace your own Sony Reader's battery but would pay Sony to do it since, 1) it is not easy to do and 2) you'd be cheating Sony out of their fair profit.
That's not the same thing at all. Sony don't give two hoots if I choose to change the battery myself. All they say is "your warranty is void if you open the case", and leave it up to you to decide whether or not to do so.

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Personally I do not hold with piracy (of any kind). This includes the "legal" piracy that industries do when they restrict my rights to do with property I purchased any thing I want to.
There have to be restrictions on what one is or is not allowed to do with intellectual property. You talk about "restricting your rights to do with property I purchased anything I want". Do you think that you should have the right to make 100 copies of a CD and sell those on eBay? Surely that type of "right" has to be restricted, doesn't it? You are buying the physical medium, not any kind of "ownership" of its contents.
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Old 10-08-2007, 02:58 PM   #96
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There have to be restrictions on what one is or is not allowed to do with intellectual property.
But why? I don't think you've given a good reason for this statement. It's obviously something you believe very strongly. I'm not convinced, however.

Copyright protection exists for one reason only - to encourage the production of art for the good of society. There is no other reason to have the law - there is no universal right to have your creation protected from copying.

So if copyright protection is not needed in order to encourage production, or it is not effective, or if it harms society more than it aids, then it is not fulfilling its purpose, and should be abandoned or reworked.

I would argue that all three of these things are true, and that copyright (for the most part) is an outdated concept that is meaningless in an age of digital plenty. For the good of society, copyright law should be reworked to reflect the lack of scarcity and the unbinding of creative works from physical media.
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Old 10-08-2007, 03:14 PM   #97
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There have to be restrictions on what one is or is not allowed to do with intellectual property. You talk about "restricting your rights to do with property I purchased anything I want". Do you think that you should have the right to make 100 copies of a CD and sell those on eBay? Surely that type of "right" has to be restricted, doesn't it? You are buying the physical medium, not any kind of "ownership" of its contents.
No but that gets into another arena. I do have the moral right to use the intellectual property that I have purchased the right to use. OK, I don't own the intellectual property, but telling me that I can not change it so that it is useful to me is morally wrong. And that is what DRM laws are saying. I do have the moral right to read the written intellectual property that I was sold the right to read whatever format it is in.

Looked at realistically, you could say that writing something in a language that I don't understand is a form of encryption and therefore to translate it would be a violation of copyright. But no one is suing Babblefish (yet!).
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Old 10-08-2007, 03:25 PM   #98
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For the good of society, copyright law should be reworked to reflect the lack of scarcity and the unbinding of creative works from physical media.
Sorry, bingle, but you've hit a hot-button for me, so now you must endure a rant.

The originals are just as scarce as they ever were -- only one person can create each original, the fact that copying and distribution is cheap and easy hasn't changed that.

Very few folks are wealthy enough to do something like writing for free -- if they depend on it for their bread and cheese then they need some safe-guard on the income (I'm not arguing for any particular approach, only pointing out the issue). In the absence of such a safe-guard, most will have to find some other way to put food on the table.

The next point is usually something like "true writers have to write, and will do so regardless." That's generally true. But it's extremely low, petty, greedy, and several other unprintable things, to take advantage of that fact to leave true writers in poverty because we, as a society, refuse to acknowledge that they should have some way to secure a living from their labors, just because it's cheap and easy to rip them off.

If they can't reliably sell what they write, then they can't afford to write -- and they can't sell it if the filthy so and so down the way is giving away copies or selling them for pennies. If the impact is severe enough then they'll have to choose to either stop writing, or starve to death, and either way, nothing much gets written.

Okay, end of rant.

I'd agree, however, that copyright law is seriously overdue for a total rebuild from the ground up, and the non-physical nature of modern media needs to be addressed ... among many other issues, but protecting the concept of protecting the creators of them from shameless exploitation, and balancing it against the good of society at large should be heart and soul of that re-build.

It's not in anybody's best interest for work to be unprotected just because it's easy to copy.
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Old 10-08-2007, 04:02 PM   #99
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And just to head off another possible argument-- many writers, musicians, etc. will still create, even if they aren't paid. But the best writers and musicians I know all acknowledge that it takes a lot of time, effort, and attention to really become good at their art. If they have to hold down a "day job" because their art can't support them, they are unlikely to become as good as they could if they could devote themselves to their art full-time.

I want my favorite writers to spend their time writing, not flipping burgers or building websites. I want my favorite musicians to be able to spend as much time as possible actually playing and composing, not sweeping floors or balancing spreadsheets. And for that to happen, their work needs to be protected so that they get paid when they create something that many people like enough to want to read, listen to, watch, etc.

Now, should the cost to the consumer still reflect physical media and production costs? Of course not. Should the sale price have to include restrictive software that keeps the purchaser from enjoying their purchase wherever or whenever they like? Heck no! There's a lot wrong with the content industries today, and their business models and the laws that protect them need review and revision.

But I stand firm on my position that the creators (and those who help them, like editors and sound engineers) need to be paid-- and deserve to be paid-- for their honest work.
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Old 10-08-2007, 04:07 PM   #100
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The originals are just as scarce as they ever were -- only one person can create each original, the fact that copying and distribution is cheap and easy hasn't changed that.
I only say this, NatCh, because you got so serious on us. But this is not completely accurate, else there would be no books with two or more credited authors. Unless you get picky & break the book into the individual author's parts.
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Old 10-08-2007, 04:21 PM   #101
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Spoken like a true reactionary.

To legal theorists, custom often has precedence on positive law. In a case where custom permits a certain act, and where the law forbids it, we have to ask ourselves which of the two take precedence. For all intents, what really matters is which of the two will end up punishing or acquitting an individual who commits the act. Positive law has the courts at its disposal, but that doesn't at all mean we'll be prosecuted if the Crown attorney doesn't think it's appropriate to pursue the matter. "Dura lex sed lex" only applies when the courts are willing to hear the case. Highway rules are a good example. In Canada, the limit is generally 100km/h, but the cops won't stop you unless you're doing about 120. We could safely say that according to custom, driving at, say 105, is perfectly acceptable, and that positive law will not sanction this violation.

In the case of copying CDs at home, we can conclude that custom overides positive law. I've never heard of a case in the USA where a person was prosecuted for copying CDs at home. So I would tend to disagree with Sony's lawyer when she says it's stealing. It may be contrary to the law, but it's not stealing.

Only a narrow-minded minority of people would say that something is wrong because the law says so. There are, and have always been, discrepancies between the written law and the social reality.
Custom in the US was once that any drug was legal. Then they passed laws saying certain drugs were illegal. The custom part breaks down very quickly.
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Old 10-08-2007, 04:32 PM   #102
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I only say this, NatCh, because you got so serious on us. But this is not completely accurate, else there would be no books with two or more credited authors. Unless you get picky & break the book into the individual author's parts.
Yes, in those situations, I'd insist on getting picky, just to support my point.
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Old 10-08-2007, 05:50 PM   #103
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If you don't like the way music companies do business, don't buy from them... it won't kill you.
And we are branded as pirates when we don't buy from them.

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And remember, it's the job of taxpayers to force the government to change its laws.
Yes, we all know how well that system works (i.e. it doesn't).

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Too many people are cursing the music (and publishing) industries, then doing nothing constructive to change things. In fact, stealing, file sharing and DRM-cracking aren't doing anything to change things for the better, they're just allowing the industries to legally tighten DRM and sue customers. That's not helping.
Actually it is. It's opening up doors for people who get their content out there legally. It's forcing the content dinosaurs to rethink their business models.
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Old 10-08-2007, 05:53 PM   #104
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My point is not that it defeats the serious pirate, but that it prevents the type of "casual piracy" that's all too easy, even for the person who would probably regard themselves as basically honest, that you get with CDs, say. It's so easy to run off a copy of a CD these days.
And as Cory Doctorow (and others) have pointed out countless times, it only takes 1 cracked copy to be propagated around the world.

The "it only prevents casual piracy" excuse was bogus a long time ago.
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Old 10-08-2007, 05:55 PM   #105
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Many kids today seem to think that they have some "God-given right" to download for free whatever music they wish, rather than paying for it.
That's because DRM has made downloading free easier than buying.

And I'll point out that when the cassette came out, many kids (who usually have little money) pirated many songs. The music industry didn't die then either.
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