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Old 09-14-2012, 06:51 PM   #106
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I have an extensive library and for a while I was using 1dollarscan to transcribe many of my (as yet unread) books to digital format. Then my son-in-law pointed out that you could locate a free eBook version of almost any book online, and that as I owned the original I would not breach copyright if I saved time and expense by downloading such books. I ran this past our legal department and they agreed, as long as I already owned the book, how I obtained a digital copy wasn't relevant.

This might not apply in all jurisdictions, but I fail to why it wouldn't. You buy a licence for the copyrighted material when you purchase something, not the medium used to provide it.
Did your legal department say that you needed to retain the physical copy as well? And if you don't--if you sell it or give it away or even lose it--how does that affect the legality of the digital copy, in their opinion?
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Old 09-14-2012, 09:40 PM   #107
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Did your legal department say that you needed to retain the physical copy as well? And if you don't--if you sell it or give it away or even lose it--how does that affect the legality of the digital copy, in their opinion?
It is like any other potential for illegality - you can be honest or not. People who rip CDs and DVDs are legally obligated to keep the original, it is up to them whether they do or not. No law or penalty can be based on the presumption that people will act in a criminal manner, law can only attempt to prosecute them if they do. If you give the original away then you will be in breach of copyright. If you lose it you won't, the licence is still yours, it can only pass to another if you give it or sell it. If I lose or have my car stolen, it is still mine, the person who stole it or found it does not have title.

I keep all my books and all my music although most of them are now in digital format. I have packing cases of old CDs, LPs and Cassette tapes mouldering away in a storage facility; more than two and a half thousand of them. We had a case that made news here recently - a woman who made a dress for her daughter based on an expensive designer dress that she saw in a magazine. She received a small fine. I think that the Magistrate was reluctant to even go that far but had to follow the law.
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Old 09-15-2012, 03:12 PM   #108
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This is interesting stuff, what if I buy a secondhand copy of a book at a garage sale that is only half readable due to water damage, am I still legally entitled to use these dollar scan places to obtain an e-version?
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Old 09-15-2012, 05:04 PM   #109
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This is interesting stuff, what if I buy a secondhand copy of a book at a garage sale that is only half readable due to water damage, am I still legally entitled to use these dollar scan places to obtain an e-version?
Yes. I believe you're legally allowed to have them scan your half-readable, water-damaged, second-hand, garage sale purchased copy for you.
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Old 09-15-2012, 05:31 PM   #110
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It depends a lot on where you are, but in most cases once you purchase any version of something that is copyrighted you own it regardless of the medium it might subsequently be transferred to. This is how idollarscan works. They have copies of all material they scan, which they cannot sell, but if someone provides them with proof of entitlement - in the form of a book, they can provide that scan legally. They don't scan each book sent to them, they have built up a library. If I have a vinyl LP that I purchased in the seventies, I own that music. If I download a digitised copy rather than rip it myself - I am still legal. (As long as the copy is not a different version of the same material - i.e., remastered etc.) If I own a physical book, then I can download a digital version legally. I don't have to scan it or use an organisation like 1dollarscan. Many of the torrents that provide music or eBooks have warning on them to the effect that if you don't already have the rights to the material then you will breach copyright.

I have an extensive library and for a while I was using 1dollarscan to transcribe many of my (as yet unread) books to digital format. Then my son-in-law pointed out that you could locate a free eBook version of almost any book online, and that as I owned the original I would not breach copyright if I saved time and expense by downloading such books. I ran this past our legal department and they agreed, as long as I already owned the book, how I obtained a digital copy wasn't relevant.

This might not apply in all jurisdictions, but I fail to why it wouldn't. You buy a licence for the copyrighted material when you purchase something, not the medium used to provide it.

Keep in mind he is in Australia, so if you are in China, UK, USA, Canada, or etc... Laws could be and probably are completely different.
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Old 09-16-2012, 02:41 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by DarkScribe View Post
People who rip CDs and DVDs are legally obligated to keep the original, it is up to them whether they do or not.
Do you know of an actual legal ruling establishing this, or are you just assuming that's the case because it makes sense?

It does make sense; that has no bearing whatsoever on the law.

Quote:
No law or penalty can be based on the presumption that people will act in a criminal manner,
Except for protest zones around political events, perhaps. And curfews. And the TSA's restrictions on airline travel.

There are rather a lot of laws and penalties that are based on the presumption that people will become criminals if given the opportunity.

Quote:
If you give the original away then you will be in breach of copyright.
Copyright law has no specific exemption (in the US or UK; less sure about other places) for personal copies for noncommercial use. If you make a copy, you are potentially in breach of copyright. Keeping or removing the original doesn't change the act of making the copy.

If you lose it you won't, the licence is still yours, it can only pass to another if you give it or sell it. If I lose or have my car stolen, it is still mine, the person who stole it or found it does not have title.

Quote:
We had a case that made news here recently - a woman who made a dress for her daughter based on an expensive designer dress that she saw in a magazine. She received a small fine. I think that the Magistrate was reluctant to even go that far but had to follow the law.
Clothing is a whole different mess, not covered by copyright. Can potentially hit trademark rules.
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Old 09-16-2012, 02:53 AM   #112
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We should just throw out copyright. And let the market find its own balance. culture can be supported by the state and private donors... then we'll back to the good old days, and information will be free flowing without the threat of violence because someone doesn't like your ebook or film.
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Old 09-16-2012, 03:01 AM   #113
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Copyright law has no specific exemption (in the US or UK; less sure about other places) for personal copies for noncommercial use.
Actually it does. UK copyright law has a specific exemption for recording off the radio for personal, non-commercial use. That's why many DAB radios sold in the UK have recording capabilities.
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Old 09-16-2012, 03:16 AM   #114
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Some publishers offer up the digital copy with the paperbook. Nice idea.
But then, it's the publisher choise to offer the e-book, and your choice to accept the deal or not.

I have no problem with buying e-books of books I own as paperback. If I liked a book enough to re-read it once, i'm likely to re-read it again.
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Old 09-16-2012, 07:09 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Elfwreck View Post
Do you know of an actual legal ruling establishing this, or are you just assuming that's the case because it makes sense?

It does make sense; that has no bearing whatsoever on the law.



Except for protest zones around political events, perhaps. And curfews. And the TSA's restrictions on airline travel.

There are rather a lot of laws and penalties that are based on the presumption that people will become criminals if given the opportunity.



Copyright law has no specific exemption (in the US or UK; less sure about other places) for personal copies for noncommercial use. If you make a copy, you are potentially in breach of copyright. Keeping or removing the original doesn't change the act of making the copy.

If you lose it you won't, the licence is still yours, it can only pass to another if you give it or sell it. If I lose or have my car stolen, it is still mine, the person who stole it or found it does not have title.



Clothing is a whole different mess, not covered by copyright. Can potentially hit trademark rules.

Elfwreck, note he is posting from Australia, none of your American examples apply. I know nothing of the law in the land down under, so I can not speak to his rightness or wrongness for his country.


However in America..

Quote:
4. What's been recognized as fair use?

Courts have previously found that a use was fair where the use of the copyrighted work was socially beneficial. In particular, U.S. courts have recognized the following fair uses: criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, research and parodies.

In addition, in 1984 the Supreme Court held that time-shifting (for example, private, non-commercial home taping of television programs with a VCR to permit later viewing) is fair use. (Sony Corporation of America v. Universal City Studios, 464 U.S. 417 (1984, S.C.)

Although the legal basis is not completely settled, many lawyers believe that the following (and many other uses) are also fair uses:
  1. Space-shifting or format-shifting - that is, taking content you own in one format and putting it into another format, for personal, non-commercial use. For instance, "ripping" an audio CD (that is, making an MP3-format version of an audio CD that you already own) is considered fair use by many lawyers, based on the 1984 Betamax decision and the 1999 Rio MP3 player decision (RIAA v. Diamond Multimedia, 180 F. 3d 1072, 1079, 9th Circ. 1999.)
  2. Making a personal back-up copy of content you own - for instance, burning a copy of an audio CD you own.
Source : Eff.org

So it is not as cut and draw as anyone would like it to be.
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Old 09-16-2012, 10:33 AM   #116
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Actually it does. UK copyright law has a specific exemption for recording off the radio for personal, non-commercial use. That's why many DAB radios sold in the UK have recording capabilities.
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Elfwreck, note he is posting from Australia, none of your American examples apply. I know nothing of the law in the land down under, so I can not speak to his rightness or wrongness for his country.
Sorry; I forgot. I did know exemptions for time/format shifting had been made--none of which seem to specifically require keeping the original.

In the case of "record a radio/tv show," you don't have the original at all. You're making a copy to keep of something you legally have temporary access to. The same argument could be made for scanning a library book in order to read it on an ereader, or because you read slowly enough that the standard loan period isn't long enough. (E.g. reading it aloud for a sick relative.)

And the right to record sound hasn't been extended to the right to record text, although some recent rulings imply that it would be, if that particular issue ever went to court.
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Old 09-16-2012, 10:34 AM   #117
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So ... are you folks saying that when I cleaned up my old LPs and turned them into CDs and/or mp3 files, I had some actual legal obligation to keep the LPs? Or when I converted my VHS tapes to DVDs, I was supposed to keep the tapes piled up in the closet? Or if I scan a book, I'm supposed to hold on to the paper copy?

Why? Either legally or from a commonsense perspective, why?
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Old 09-16-2012, 10:38 AM   #118
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So ... are you folks saying that when I cleaned up my old LPs and turned them into CDs and/or mp3 files, I had some actual legal obligation to keep the LPs? Or when I converted my VHS tapes to DVDs, I was supposed to keep the tapes piled up in the closet? Or if I scan a book, I'm supposed to hold on to the paper copy?

Why? Either legally or from a commonsense perspective, why?
I would say that in America the law is not clear, so I personally would advise keeping them. I would say that the law is way behind the technology still. If we are talking purely LEGALLY that is. I am fairly sure that if you can prove you bought and paid for (or otherwise legally obtained) the original, you would be safe, LEGALLY.

But that is my opinion, and not the opinion of a lawyer or judge, so take that as you may.
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:14 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Catlady View Post
So ... are you folks saying that when I cleaned up my old LPs and turned them into CDs and/or mp3 files, I had some actual legal obligation to keep the LPs? Or when I converted my VHS tapes to DVDs, I was supposed to keep the tapes piled up in the closet? Or if I scan a book, I'm supposed to hold on to the paper copy?

Why? Either legally or from a commonsense perspective, why?
There's no necessity to keep them, but you certainly can't give them away or sell them, because that you'd have paid for one copy, but both you and the recipient would end up with copies. Doing the format conversion and then destroying the original is fine.
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:21 AM   #120
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There's no necessity to keep them, but you certainly can't give them away or sell them, because that you'd have paid for one copy, but both you and the recipient would end up with copies. Doing the format conversion and then destroying the original is fine.
The burning of a book to support antiquated copyright legislation???

That most certainly does not sound fine!
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