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Old 07-23-2011, 03:00 PM   #31
ebusinesstutor
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I don't expect the ebook version for free if I buy the hardcover or paperback, but I do think publishers would get more in sales from me if they offered a package deal of a special price for both.

I might not want to spend $10 on the paperback version plus $10 on the ebook version and just choose one. But, if I could get both for $15, I might consider it.
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Old 07-23-2011, 03:08 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randeep View Post
Is that what the law says? I've never heard that before. But that is what many people here are saying: if you want to make your own digital copy, then fine. There's a flaw here too, someone else has made a digital copy already. In the case of the CD, it's akin to my owning a CD, and then copying the mp3 album from another server or friend.

Well if someone has made the eBook already and I download that, why is that any worse than if I created my own e-book? Are we suggesting that having to perform the labor of the media's creation legitimizes its ownership?
Yes, provided that you are the legal owner of the physical source product in question. This is the key point that I always try to go by and is my understanding of this stuff.

The folks have already tried to explain this to you - the phrase "format shift" is exceptionally good IMO.

You BUY a copy of Windows, you are legally entitled to make a backup/archive copy of it. While manufacturers of computers are skimping these days and no longer including physical copies of the OS with your purchase, all include software for you to burn your own copy for backup.

You BUY a copy of Opeth's new album, you are entitled to make backup copies of the CD and also to format shift to whatever file type you need for your players.

You BUY a copy of Stephen King's new pbook, [I believe] you are entitled to format shift/make a digital copy of the book for your OWN consumption. [If not the case, that I can legally do this, then even I now have a huge problem with this].

You go to your local library and BORROW Opeth's new album or King's new book and you are NOT legally entitled to scan/format shift anything. You didn't BUY it.

Your example makes a sort of sense - I do see what you are saying and not trying to jump down your throat. However, you know that guy you downloaded King's ebook from? He has no legal right to distribute it to anyone else so you shouldn't be able to get it in the first place. Just as you don't have a legal right to buy King's pbook, scan it and then distribute it online.

I ain't no angel, but I generally try to play by the rules, for better or worse.

The rules suck? Work to change 'em.

And I predict that the pbook/ebook package deals mentioned earlier by other people will indeed be something that happens and becomes commonplace - quite soon if not already. Then we will all be reading stories of technophobe readers who are protesting that they have to pay for an electronic format that they will never use [unless separate combo pricing packages are created].

Last edited by lestatar; 07-23-2011 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 07-23-2011, 03:55 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randeep View Post
Is that what the law says? I've never heard that before. But that is what many people here are saying: if you want to make your own digital copy, then fine. There's a flaw here too, someone else has made a digital copy already. In the case of the CD, it's akin to my owning a CD, and then copying the mp3 album from another server or friend.

Well if someone has made the eBook already and I download that, why is that any worse than if I created my own e-book? Are we suggesting that having to perform the labor of the media's creation legitimizes its ownership?
With your example, that is not legal, because someone else distributed what they had no right to. In the US (and many other countries), you're allowed to make a copy for personal use only, and you are not allowed to redistribute it. When you yourself make MP3s of a CD you own, you're making a copy which is consider legal. If you then give a friend copies of those MP3s, regardless of if they own a copy of the CD, then you are redistributing. That is the cold hard truth. The same logic applies to eBooks. The creation of the digital copy can be done by anyone, and be legal, but distributing it is not.

Realistically though, there are methods to where you don't have to do the work yourself and remain legal. One that I can think of, is if someone else does the work using your equipment. In this case, the copy being made is still considered your copy for personal use, and no redistributing is made since the entire time it resided on equipment that you own. I know under British law, the only snag to this, is that the person doing the work may not profit from it. The only money that can be exchanged in this scenario (again, under British law), is to cover any expenses occurred.

Under US law, it may be argued that you can use the first sale doctrine to legally transfer ownership of something, including copies made for personal use. For instance, if your friend buys a book, makes an ebook copy of it, he may legally sell you the book, along with any copies he made. After the sale is done, he may no longer possess any copy, and you must retain what would be considered the source (the paper book) in order to keep hold of the digital copy. This is a bit more of a legal grey area, due to various contests to the first sale doctrine.

Still, in all of this, it boils down to, you cannot redistribute willy nilly, regardless of whether or not the person can legally have a copy.
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Old 07-23-2011, 03:58 PM   #34
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How about you just send the relevant agencies some monies and then determine which format best suits your reading style...

We no longer have to be restricted to whatever format the publishers deem acceptable. We are not paying for the paper or the energy the words are printed or displayed on. We are paying for the ideas contained within those words.

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Old 07-23-2011, 03:59 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellmark View Post
...SNIPPED...

Under US law, it may be argued that you can use the first sale doctrine to legally transfer ownership of something, including copies made for personal use. For instance, if your friend buys a book, makes an ebook copy of it, he may legally sell you the book, along with any copies he made. After the sale is done, he may no longer possess any copy, and you must retain what would be considered the source (the paper book) in order to keep hold of the digital copy. This is a bit more of a legal grey area, due to various contests to the first sale doctrine...SNIPPED...
Interesting. I was not aware of this first sale doctrine. Thanks for the info and making the explanation so clear
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Old 07-23-2011, 04:43 PM   #36
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Maybe one day ebooks will come bundled with the regular book? Kind of like CDs that come with DVDs of perfomances or even now, DVD+Blu-Ray+Digital Edition DVDS? One can hope.
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Old 07-23-2011, 05:34 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Dulin's Books View Post
maybe because you bought the VHS version of Bambi years ago you should get the BluRay version for free?
Not for free, but with a significant discount for upgrading. Disney has indeed offered coupons for as much as $8 off the price of a Blu-ray if you send in proof of purchase/SKU from a VHS or DVD of the same title. And you get to keep your original version. I did this for many Disney titles, then donated the tapes and DVDs. Disney gets more money from me; I get a better version of the movie; and someone else gets to enjoy my donated tape. Everyone's happy.
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Old 07-23-2011, 06:16 PM   #38
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Not sure that distributing the old version is legal.

Like remaindered copies of books. The books store can send back just the cover of the book to the publisher for credit. But legally must destroy the remainder of the book. If they give it away or sell it, they are in violation.

But bottom line is, whether you like it or not, agree with it or not, think it makes sense or not, it IS the law. Change the law of if you choose to ignore it, you may suffer the consequences.
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Old 07-23-2011, 06:50 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by pidgeon92 View Post
it doesn't mean you should get the different format for free because it would take longer. You want it digitized? You do the work.
But then didn't someone else do the work to create a CD ripper program? You should therefore write your own CD ripping software as otherwise you're just pressing a button.

I don't see an issue with a free eBook if you own the physical book, no matter who ripped it. The end is the same.

I'm sure publishers wouldn't like it as I'm sure there are different profit ideas with print and ebooks.
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Old 07-23-2011, 07:05 PM   #40
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But then didn't someone else do the work to create a CD ripper program? You should therefore write your own CD ripping software as otherwise you're just pressing a button.
I paid for my CD ripping software, and I paid for the CDs I ripped.
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Old 07-23-2011, 07:31 PM   #41
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People have the right in most countries to sell what they have legal rights to at whatever price/manner they choose.

The customer has the choice to purchase it or not.

The customer deciding to illegally acquire an ebook because of feeling entitled is the same as a customer walking into a full service restaurant and refusing to pay the menu price for the burger they ate because McDonald's only charges $1.99.

Actually owning the physical book in most cases means that one doesn't need the ebook, one just wants it, so not a justification as far as I can see.

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Old 07-23-2011, 08:39 PM   #42
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Not for free, but with a significant discount for upgrading. Disney has indeed offered coupons for as much as $8 off the price of a Blu-ray if you send in proof of purchase/SKU from a VHS or DVD of the same title. And you get to keep your original version. I did this for many Disney titles, then donated the tapes and DVDs. Disney gets more money from me; I get a better version of the movie; and someone else gets to enjoy my donated tape. Everyone's happy.
Disney as the rights owner has the right to distribute it the way they want. even offer it at a discount for upgrading etc. The OP seemed to be suggesting that because he at some point purchased a paper version of a book he was entitled to a free digital version from the publisher/author etc.
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:49 PM   #43
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I paid for my CD ripping software, and I paid for the CDs I ripped.
I can only imagine how square and straight the crease in your pants is :P
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:07 PM   #44
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That's because your question was rather ridiculous. "If you buy an mp3 album should you get the CD for free?" It's not what we are talking about all and you should be able to see the flaw in your reasoning almost immediately.
nope, kennys argument is valid since it's another example of "should one be entitled to hardware media for free from the content reseller, when buying content only?"
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:10 PM   #45
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the physical space ebooks save makes them worthy
this changed by me.
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