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Old 06-19-2011, 09:29 AM   #16
crich70
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Originally Posted by khalleron View Post
I'm not claiming copyright, but my work was donated to esspc-ebooks.com - no one has the right to profit from my labor (or Ken Mattern's) without my (our) permission.

It would be the same as if someone were taking books from the MR library and selling them on Amazon without alteration.

There might not be a legal recourse, but telling people to knock it off is perfectly legitimate.
I can see your point if Amazon had MR ebooks on site and charged for them. I don't know if such could be argued if they were in the free category or if Amazon just put up a link to the site though since the books (aside from the creative commons ones) are built from PD files. But if they were to take copies of the Omnibus books or others I have uploaded and sell them I might also be a bit angry. Not so much for the $ (though I might consider myself eligible for a share for having done the conversion & be angry if Amazon didn't give me a share for my labors if they were going to sell it), but because I had uploaded the book at MR meaning for it to be offered freely. Also I would want the credit for the work I had done.
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:31 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khalleron View Post
I'm not claiming copyright, but my work was donated to esspc-ebooks.com - no one has the right to profit from my labor (or Ken Mattern's) without my (our) permission.
Well, that's precisely the question, isn't it? If everything is still in the PD, there's nothing to stop anybody from doing so. Although editing can be very hard work, obviously, it usually doesn't quite reach the "threshold of originality" required in many countries' copyright acts.

If done commercially this could amount to "unfair business practices", of course, but seeing as how you don't seem to have commercial motives yourself, this is probably not an option.

Is it tacky? Obviously. Forbidden? Not so easy to answer.

Quote:
It would be the same as if someone were taking books from the MR library and selling them on Amazon without alteration.
This might shock you, but I'm not sure that there is much that could be done about it in legal terms.

Quote:
There might not be a legal recourse, but telling people to knock it off is perfectly legitimate.
By all means
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:39 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crich70 View Post
I can see your point if Amazon had MR ebooks on site and charged for them. I don't know if such could be argued if they were in the free category or if Amazon just put up a link to the site though since the books (aside from the creative commons ones) are built from PD files. But if they were to take copies of the Omnibus books or others I have uploaded and sell them I might also be a bit angry. Not so much for the $ (though I might consider myself eligible for a share for having done the conversion & be angry if Amazon didn't give me a share for my labors if they were going to sell it), but because I had uploaded the book at MR meaning for it to be offered freely. Also I would want the credit for the work I had done.
it's really the principle of the thing. i'd be angry too because of the hard work of other people being taken advantage of
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Old 06-19-2011, 11:54 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubemonkey View Post
Sure wish someone would steal my poetry and publish it:

a frog
sat on a log
and wished he was a dog
in the middle of a bog
with a sky full of fog
then went for a jog
on a hog

I like this.
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Old 06-19-2011, 01:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sil_liS View Post
I think that it might be wiser to educate the buyers. I mean people eventually got the point that clicking on the bright red "Congratulations! You are our 1,000,000th visitor" button, so eventually they might get the point that they should look at the source of a book, even if it is sold by Amazon.
Even if it is free somewhere else a lot of people will prefer to get it from Amazon because it's easier. That's why so many writers say that piracy doesn't affect their sales in any way. The same will (probably) be the case on other readers that are tethered to one particular retail site.
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Old 06-19-2011, 02:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Maltby View Post
Maybe the Amazon ebook offering that was taken and "re-published" has a price attached?

I might be a little pissed if someone was profiting from my hours of donated work.

Luck;
Ken
I see them generally selling for 99 cents. And the process is now automated which is why thousands can be posted each day.

Karen [koland] from the deals section says they use fake names and publishers to hide their activity.
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Old 06-19-2011, 03:54 PM   #22
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I wonder when Amazon will be hit by the first lawsuit for copyright infringement. If they don't take any steps whatever to ensure that they do not publish books that violate someone else's copyright then Amazon starts to look remarkably similar to a pirate site.
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Old 06-19-2011, 04:19 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CommonReader View Post
I wonder when Amazon will be hit by the first lawsuit for copyright infringement. If they don't take any steps whatever to ensure that they do not publish books that violate someone else's copyright then Amazon starts to look remarkably similar to a pirate site.
They do take steps. When you publish a book at Amazon, you have to sign (and I mean physically sign, and fax them, not just tick a box) an agreement stating that you have the legal right to publish the material that you are publishing. That presumably would stand up in a court of law.
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Old 06-19-2011, 04:33 PM   #24
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Subscribers of pirate sites are also being asked to sign the terms of usage that prohibit the publication of any material that violates the copyright of third parties.
That defense may work as long as copyright violations are a rare occurrence. As soon as they are starting to be a mass phenomenon the defense may quickly wear thin.

Last edited by CommonReader; 06-19-2011 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 06-19-2011, 05:33 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr ploppy View Post
Even if it is free somewhere else a lot of people will prefer to get it from Amazon because it's easier. That's why so many writers say that piracy doesn't affect their sales in any way. The same will (probably) be the case on other readers that are tethered to one particular retail site.
On the thread about older women pirating, people discussed at some point about the the websites where you get the ebooks from, and how do you know if the site is reputable or not, how do you know if a free book is free because there is a special promotion by the author, by the store, because it is part of the public domain, or if it is an illegal copy. I think that questioning the source of the file should be a good idea in all cases.

But I don't think that people would really do it.
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Old 06-19-2011, 05:37 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubemonkey View Post
Sure wish someone would steal my poetry and publish it:

a frog
sat on a log
and wished he was a dog
in the middle of a bog
with a sky full of fog
then went for a jog
on a hog

I think you're safe .........
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Old 06-19-2011, 05:47 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubemonkey View Post
Sure wish someone would steal my poetry and publish it:

a frog
sat on a log
and wished he was a dog
in the middle of a bog
with a sky full of fog
then went for a jog
on a hog

I just used your work. Do I have to pay you?
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Old 06-20-2011, 05:18 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Sil_liS View Post
On the thread about older women pirating, people discussed at some point about the the websites where you get the ebooks from, and how do you know if the site is reputable or not, how do you know if a free book is free because there is a special promotion by the author, by the store, because it is part of the public domain, or if it is an illegal copy. I think that questioning the source of the file should be a good idea in all cases.

But I don't think that people would really do it.
I'd be interested to know how people COULD to do it, considering that this is already provably happening on Amazon on a regular basis.

Remember when "J.K.R." (or whatever the name was) posted the Harry Potter books for sale on Amazon? Amazon yanked the content pretty quickly, but I'm sure that some people purchased the books. Were they supposed to write jkrowling@yahoo.com or whatever for independent confirmation that SHE posted the books, and not someone else?

There's currently no online database that I know of that is controlled by, say, the government, and says which books have been published online and by whom and where and with valid links to each. It'd be nice to have, but until something like that exists, buying from Amazon (or wherever) is still a crapshoot to a certain (rather small) extent.
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Old 06-21-2011, 06:48 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by anamardoll View Post
There's currently no online database that I know of that is controlled by, say, the government, and says which books have been published online and by whom and where and with valid links to each. It'd be nice to have, but until something like that exists, buying from Amazon (or wherever) is still a crapshoot to a certain (rather small) extent.
My problem with this is that people assume that since it is on Amazon, it is OK. And that is wrong.

I've been in train stations where they keep repeating that you shouldn't leave your luggage unattended. Project Gutenberg tells people to check if the books are in public domain in their countries. Amazon could place a banner saying that people should check if the books are legit.
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Old 06-21-2011, 10:17 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Sil_liS View Post
My problem with this is that people assume that since it is on Amazon, it is OK. And that is wrong.

I've been in train stations where they keep repeating that you shouldn't leave your luggage unattended. Project Gutenberg tells people to check if the books are in public domain in their countries. Amazon could place a banner saying that people should check if the books are legit.
I see it less of "assuming it's ok" and "not knowing how to go about checking it".

PD rules are INCREDIBLY convoluted and rarely make any kind of sense. There's not -- that I know of -- a big list that's easy to check. You have to track down publishing date, author death date, and then start digging through Mickey Mouse exceptions and start doing all kinds of math, and at the end of the day, it's still a crapshoot.

And that's PD books. I'm also pointing out that you can't tell if the J.K.R. on Amazon that posted Harry Potter books is THE J.K.R. who finally changed her stance on the topic or some pirate playing a prank. I mean, obviously that's a pretty obvious case, but we just had this issue with a cheap copy of "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley that went up on Amazon -- no one was really sure if it was a legit seller, and there wasn't a way to check. And believe me, I tried.

In the piracy debate, there is WAY too much "people are lazy/greedy/stupid" moaning going on, and although I don't think that's what *you* meant, I do want to point out that saying "people won't check" isn't really looking at the big picture:

Which is that when people DO check (as I do), they rarely find a solid open-and-shut answer.

ALSO:

Analogy Police time.

You shouldn't leave your bags unattended because people could steal them or plant bombs in them. In the case of the former, it's pretty easy to tell if that's happened or not (the bag is gone); in the case of the latter, PEOPLE DIE.

PD books? Are not the same thing.

Yes, I'm a scold, but there are also too many silly analogies being tossed into the piracy debate, and only 0.01% are actually relevant.

Last edited by anamardoll; 06-21-2011 at 10:41 AM.
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