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Old 09-13-2007, 11:39 AM   #61
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With an ordinary book, everyone can see what you're reading, because the cover is visible! With an e-book, you can wear a business suit and look like you're contemplating your companie's latest annual report, while you're actually reading ... oh, whatever you'd rather read instead ...
Except in Japan, here everybody uses book covers made of what appears to be a paper bag with some store getting free advertising space on it. So, dead tree books suck even more here since you have to kill an additional tree to cover the product of a tree you previously killed... and people can still look over your shoulder and see what you're reading!
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Old 09-13-2007, 01:16 PM   #62
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If we would use less paper, forest owners wouldn't be able to sell as much trees, so they would do different things with their land. In fact, at least in Europe, 100% of the paper is made from woods that are replanted, so the paper industry is probably the only reason why there are any woods left at all.
Replanted quick-growing pine isn't the same, ecologically, as old-growth forest, which will contain a diversity of species. Growing and cutting pine actually depletes the soil, whereas standing old-growth forests enrich it.

I'm very glad to hear that the paper industry in Europe is using replanted trees, rather than chopping down the few remaining forests, but managing a woodlot for paper production can't really be equated to conserving forest.
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Old 09-13-2007, 02:26 PM   #63
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If you're talking of ecosystems Neko, you are right. But now we need something else from forests, CO2 fixing. It's been shown that at a certain point in a tree's life it fixes less CO2 than younger trees. Its a tough balance out there!

As for trees being cut, books are only a very tiny part of them. Most of them are used for boxes, wrapping and office paper.
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:26 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Karl Olsberg View Post
In exchange, I offer another paperbooks-suck-reason: With an ordinary book, everyone can see what you're reading, because the cover is visible! With an e-book, you can wear a business suit and look like you're contemplating your companie's latest annual report, while you're actually reading ... oh, whatever you'd rather read instead ...
If you are saying what I think you are saying, then, in the 18th century, porn used to be described euphemistically as 'books to be read with one hand'. And you only need one hand in order to turn the pages on a sony reader.
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Old 09-13-2007, 04:37 PM   #65
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I have to say, it's nice to see what sort of looks you get when you are reading some erotic novel.
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Old 09-14-2007, 02:55 AM   #66
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You're right, Nekokami, but ...

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Replanted quick-growing pine isn't the same, ecologically, as old-growth forest, which will contain a diversity of species. Growing and cutting pine actually depletes the soil, whereas standing old-growth forests enrich it.

I'm very glad to hear that the paper industry in Europe is using replanted trees, rather than chopping down the few remaining forests, but managing a woodlot for paper production can't really be equated to conserving forest.
Of course, industrial-grade pine tree forests are not the same as true, wild forests. But how much have we left of those? And why have they vanished? My point is, that without an economical reason, there wouldn't even be pine trees anymore, at least not as many as there are. I'm not saying that that's a good thing. But unless you can make money out of it, people will usually regard something as worthless, until it's too late. Just look at what's happening to the rain forests nowadays.
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Old 09-14-2007, 08:47 AM   #67
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I don't agree that there are forests that are thought of as worthless. Here in Canada, all forests 'within reach' have been staked and estimated. In some regions individual trees have been identified and been bought alive to be harvested when time comes(not necessarily for paper production). Paper producing forests are now mapped from cold dwarfed old growth stock; those trees are barely 6" diameter and over 400 years old! They even harvest cliff growing stock! The governments even subsidizes those companies for their road building to reach paper crops.
What is now being replanted is usually of paper making species like spruce. All else is out of the question, this way preventing any kind of ecologic balance. And they cry out when some blight destroys whole tracts of wood!
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:29 AM   #68
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Just look at what's happening to the rain forests nowadays.
Last I checked, satellite imagery indicated that there was more rain forest than there used to be (it grows so fast, you see, that it's hard to keep it cleared, and it makes lousy farm land in the first place). Certainly, the northeast section of the U.S. has returned a lot of previous farmland to wooded area.
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Old 09-14-2007, 02:09 PM   #69
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Last I checked, satellite imagery indicated that there was more rain forest than there used to be (it grows so fast, you see, that it's hard to keep it cleared, and it makes lousy farm land in the first place). Certainly, the northeast section of the U.S. has returned a lot of previous farmland to wooded area.
Why isn't the US Forestry Service doing something about this? I thought that was their job was to keep those logging roads open in our national forests and our National Parks nicely clearcut! I'm going to write my congressman about this dereliction of duty pronto!
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Old 09-14-2007, 02:21 PM   #70
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They should plant reader trees in orchards instead.
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Old 09-14-2007, 03:03 PM   #71
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Why isn't the US Forestry Service doing something about this?
This would be mostly privately held land, I believe.
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Old 09-14-2007, 03:55 PM   #72
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This would be mostly privately held land, I believe.
If you were able to see it from satelite I doubt it. The majority of the land in the US is undeveloped and owned by the state or federal goverment.

It's just sad to see the state our economic industry has fallen to. I remember a time when a logging company could pay a few thousand dollars to some officials reelection campaign and in exchange get free reign to clearcut thousands of acres of national parks. My tax dollars would even be put to good use to build logging roads to facilitate such, hundreds of people would be employed, and fresh free newspaper would be delivered to line my birdcage. It's sad to see foreign companies undercutting even this American institution.
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Old 09-14-2007, 04:05 PM   #73
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Well, the satellite remark related to rainforests, specifically, Amazon Rainforests, which would be a bit outside the purview of the US Forestry Service.
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Old 09-14-2007, 04:24 PM   #74
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Last I checked, satellite imagery indicated that there was more rain forest than there used to be (it grows so fast, you see, that it's hard to keep it cleared, and it makes lousy farm land in the first place). Certainly, the northeast section of the U.S. has returned a lot of previous farmland to wooded area.
You're totally not kidding about the rapid rate of growth! When I lived in Ecuador for a few months, they were having to continually upkeep the areas they they were working to keep them from being overgrown. I remember reading somewhere about bamboo growing so fast that it actually pierced tires and grew up around some vehicles that were parked too long during WWII! Not sure if they can make paper out of bamboo though...
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Old 09-14-2007, 04:26 PM   #75
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I think I heard somewhere that you could, but I don't recall any particulars. You can certainly make it out of hemp, though.
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