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Old 05-25-2011, 12:22 PM   #106
Joykins
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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
The difference is in the "all". I was merely objecting to the notion that piracy doesn't affect sales. I don't have to believe "all pirated copies reflect lost sales" to believe that "piracy affects sales". It need only be SOME sales lost to be true for my position.

Even your scenario can be shown to support the notion that piracy affects sales. As a kid, all my books came from the library, as gifts or from garage sales. When I became an adult with money of my own, I started buying books because it's a LOT more convenient to walk into a book store and buy a book, the specific book I want.

Piracy gives folks all the benefits of buying new. Quick, convenient, get exactly the book you want. Such that SOME purchasing will stop.

Lee
The only study I know on the issue (and it's far from a conclusive study) shows that piracy probably affects sales by increasing sales for midlist authors w(ho otherwise wouldn't have gotten the exposure), and reducing sales for bestselling authors (who otherwise might have gotten a sale). Promotional freebies have the same kind of impact for midlist authors--there are several midlist authors I've discovered through a freebie and then I've gone on to buy the rest of their books.
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Old 05-25-2011, 12:23 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by mr ploppy View Post
Doing it that way would involve standing up and going outside, and even then there would be a risk that they don't have what you want. Isn't avoiding that the whole point of ebooks?
I can place a book on hold at my library using their website and guarantee it'll be there when I get my butt off the couch.
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Old 05-25-2011, 01:18 PM   #108
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(I'm just going to dispute a couple points here, leebase, I tend to agree with most of your other points )

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Originally Posted by leebase View Post
While it's true that "every pirated copy does not equate to a lost sale" -- it is NOT true that "pirated copies never result in lost sales".
I don't think that anyone is seriously alleging the comment above that I bolded-out. No one is saying "never" as if it applies to all instances.

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lol! "You Go Guuurl". All this smokescreen about folks not knowing they are stealing is just hogwash. Folks steal all the time when they think that nobody sees them and they can get away with it.
I don't think that it's "hogwash" because you're using your own definition of "stealing". If they truly don't see it as "stealing", because of the rationale they are using, then the reality of their actions makes your labeling of it as being "stealing" just as much "hogwash" to them.

I also don't think that people steal all the time when "they think they can get away with it" because I don't agree that that's the rationale most use in cases involving ebooks. Readers, prior to the introduction of ebooks, were used to either buying their books or - and this is important - borrowing them from free from the local library or sharing books with friends. There is a long-term culture of sharing books already in existence, a culture which doesn't exist involving new cars, TV's, and all the other items trotted out when people trot out to make sarcastic comparisions. Which is why, I think, that a lot of people don't see what they do as "stealing" and are not going to see it as "stealing" no matter how much it might offend the sensibilities of others here.

The problem with threads that involve this topic is that it's hard to get a real sense of who does what and why they do it. Given the unclear legal status of downloading ebooks from alternative sources, most people of sense are not going to say outright and want it written down in black-and-white and eternally available on the internet the proof that they obtain ebooks that way - even if they think they are totally within their rights to do so. It's not a matter of feeling a sense of guilt as it is of seeing examples of industries going after low-hanging fruit in legal proceedings where they are trying to get a precedent set, and rightfully wanting to avoid that situation for themselves. I would even go so far to say that some, who are thinking several chess moves ahead, might even throw up a smokescreen and feign outrage (I'm not directing this comment toward anyone specific here) over the whole idea.
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Old 05-25-2011, 01:33 PM   #109
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There are still too many people in this thread who are assuming that the only/main reason to pirate a book is the cost.

This may be me being all Ableism 101, but it doesn't matter to some readers if they can get Harry Potter for free at the library IF an ebook version is the only thing they can comfortably read / carry around.

A lot of the first adopters for e-Readers were people who cannot use or carry typical paper books. Carpal tunnel, bad back, cerebral palsy, arthritis, tendinitis - these are all very real conditions wherein it is much easier to use ebooks than paperbooks.

Exclaiming, "But you can get Harry Potter at the library!" misses those points.

For myself, I own all the Harry Potter books and I've yet to read past the first couple, because they are too dang heavy for me to lug around and all my reading is done on the go. (I haven't pirated the ebooks because I frankly just don't care about finishing the series until Rowling wants to let me buy her books in the format I can comfortably read. In the meantime, I'm sending lots of shiny moneys to other authors.)

My point has nothing to do with piracy being legal / illegal, but rather that this "debate" is centering around a lot of misinformation about WHY some people MIGHT pirate. Saying, "oh, people are too lazy to go to the library" - even tongue-in-cheek, misses a lot of realities that some of us live with daily.

Also?

Quote:
Vg'f yvxr gelvat gb znxr gur nobegvba qrongr nobhg "jung nobhg gur tveyf jub'f qnqql'f encrq gurz" vafgrnq bs "vf nobegvba zheqre be abg".
(ROT13 above, if you don't recognize it.)

Hi. Welcome to my ignore list. This is really inappropriate and triggering for a freaking ebook discussion.

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Old 05-25-2011, 02:39 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by anamardoll View Post
Hi. Welcome to my ignore list. This is really inappropriate and triggering for a freaking ebook discussion.
Oh, I thought it was a great analogy-- a nuanced, gray issue that some people see as a simplistic, black-and-white issue, the proponents of which (on both sides) tend to be loud, angry, and dogmatic.
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:33 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by ardeegee View Post
Oh, I thought it was a great analogy-- a nuanced, gray issue that some people see as a simplistic, black-and-white issue, the proponents of which (on both sides) tend to be loud, angry, and dogmatic.
Well, maybe I'm used to "safe space" sites, but in the forums I usually frequent it's understood that stuff like that deserves a trigger warning and a spoiler tag or ROT13 conversion.

Trigger Warning: Rape

Pheerag rfgvzngrf ner gung 1 va 4 jbzra unir orra encrq ng fbzr cbvag va gurve yvirf. Gurer ner zber guna 4 jbzra qvfphffvat va guvf guernq. V pna thnenagrr lbh gung ng yrnfg bar bs gubfr jbzra unir orra encrq ng fbzr cbvag. Vg'f cbffvoyr gung gurl qba'g jnag gb or sbyybjvat n pvivy robbx qvfphffvba naq gura ONZ! ernq n gevttre yvxr gung.

This doesn't even touch on the fact that his analogy is more complicated than he's making it out to be, and further discussion of that analogy is absolutely guaranteed to derail this thread into the black hole of politics.

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Old 05-25-2011, 03:38 PM   #112
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Has anyone actually looked at the survey?

I found this and this, and while they both say 2010, I'm guessing that the first link actually refers to 2011.

Anyway, in the first link, which matches the number of consumers in the article linked in the OP, the key findings on piracy are:
Quote:
Pirates could be subscribers: 44% of those who download unauthorised content would be willing to pay a small monthly fee in order to carry on using their favourite site, rising to 51% of 25-35 year old males. Most (59%) thought £3-£3.50 a reasonable fee, but 25% would be willing to pay up to £14.50 per month.
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:43 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Sil_liS View Post
Has anyone actually looked at the survey?

I found this and this, and while they both say 2010, I'm guessing that the first link actually refers to 2011.

Anyway, in the first link, which matches the number of consumers in the article linked in the OP, the key findings on piracy are:
I can't access the link where I currently am, but that wouldn't surprise me, actually. How many people went from Napster to a radio subscription service like Pandora, I wonder. The issue in many cases wasn't so much the price, but rather the convenience.

I'd like to see a breakdown (impossible I know) between Pirated-Books-That-Have-Legal-Versions-Available-In-Most-Electronic-Formats and Pirated-Books-That-Do-NOT-Have-Legal-Versions-Available.

I.e., how many of these pirated books are books that simply can't be bought in e-book form at the moment. If there is a large discrepancy (i.e., 75% of all pirated e-books are books that don't have a legal e-book version available), then that would say to me that the issue here isn't cost at all, but format and convenience.
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:47 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by anamardoll View Post
This doesn't even touch on the fact that his analogy is more complicated than he's making it out to be,
That was my point-- he is blatantly pushing an overly simplistic black-and-white view on piracy, so it seems perfectly logical that he has an overly simplistic black-and-white view on other issues, too.
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Old 05-25-2011, 04:08 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by ardeegee View Post
That was my point-- he is blatantly pushing an overly simplistic black-and-white view on piracy, so it seems perfectly logical that he has an overly simplistic black-and-white view on other issues, too.
I think we're speaking at cross-purposes.

I know that was YOUR point (and I agree with your point, for what it's worth), but I think his statement was a bad line to trot out in a discussion because:

A) it's triggering
B) it's just begging for a political derail.

That was all I was trying to say. My "this doesn't even touch etc. etc." line was a reference to (B) above.

(Love your avatar, btw.)
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Old 05-25-2011, 04:48 PM   #116
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That was my point-- he is blatantly pushing an overly simplistic black-and-white view on piracy, so it seems perfectly logical that he has an overly simplistic black-and-white view on other issues, too.
Rather he was pointing out that the "gray issues" are a terribly small minority of the ACTUAL cases. Folks like to talk them up and obscure the basic reality. Taking commercial products without paying for them is stealing.

Pirating a book is stealing:

It's stealing whether or not you are too poor to pay.

It's stealing whether or not you think the corporations are evil greedy b@stards

It's stealing even if you wouldn't have bought the item in question any way

It's stealing even if you WOULD have bought the product, if only it was offered at a price you'd rather pay

It's stealing even though everybody does it

It's stealing even though copyrights are ridiculously long

It's stealing even though DRM does more to hamper legitimate buyers than it does to step theives

It's stealing even if you are too stupid to realize that "free on the internet" doesn't mean it's not really free

It's stealing even if you tell all your friends about how great the book is and they all go buy it.

It's stealing even if some authors think it's good advertising

It's stealing even if it IS good advertising

It's stealing even though borrowing a physical book from a friend is not stealing.

The very very very small minority of situations where it MIGHT not be stealing do not change the VAST majority of scenarios where it is stealing.

Lee
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Old 05-25-2011, 04:59 PM   #117
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Yeah, like I said-- simplistic, black-and-white view, using an archaic, outdated and false analogy based on the actual deprivation of physical objects.

You still have your file? Then it hasn't been stolen.
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Old 05-25-2011, 05:06 PM   #118
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Yeah, like I said-- simplistic, black-and-white view, using an archaic, outdated and false analogy based on the actual deprivation of physical objects.

You still have your file? Then it hasn't been stolen.
Exactly the kind of moronic view that leads us all to having to deal with DRM.

Lee
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Old 05-25-2011, 05:26 PM   #119
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Exactly the kind of moronic view that leads us all to having to deal with DRM.
Like I've said about the traditional publishing industry before-- burn, baby, burn.
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Old 05-25-2011, 05:55 PM   #120
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Rather he was pointing out that the "gray issues" are a terribly small minority of the ACTUAL cases. Folks like to talk them up and obscure the basic reality. Taking commercial products without paying for them is stealing.
Harry Potter ebooks are not commercial products.

And "making a copy" is not "taking." When someone is arrested for "stealing bread," that doesn't mean "he made a loaf of bread that was so much like SuperBreadCo's loaves that he didn't want to pay for theirs anymore."

Stealing means taking something away from someone else. If you make something so ubiquitous that nobody's willing to pay for it, you may be guilty of interfering with a business; you haven't stolen anything.

If someone stands next to a pretzel cart and gives away free pretzels, he's not "stealing," even if he's using the same recipe to make pretzels.

Quote:
Pirating a book is stealing:
Could you define "pirating" in a legal sense? Some unauthorized copies are fair use, after all. Copyright law even states an exception for entire copies for educational purposes.

Is it pirating to download the contents of a blog? Doing so removes the author's chance to make money from hit counters and ad clicks; is that theft? Is it stealing to browse the web with Adblock Plus?

Quote:
The very very very small minority of situations where it MIGHT not be stealing do not change the VAST majority of scenarios where it is stealing.
It is never stealing; it's copyright infringement, or sometimes distribution of illegal copies.

It's not "assault," either, no matter how hurt the author or publisher feels. Nor is it "murder," even if an author commits suicide from low sales.

Which doesn't mean it's acceptable or legal--just that "theft" is not the relevant legal issue. Attempting to assign a simple, emotionally-charged crime to a complex aspect of business law just shows that the anti-copying crowd can't get enough support for their stance if they use accurate terminology.
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