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Old 05-18-2011, 10:21 AM   #1
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About the backlist

I'm sure we all agree that we'd love for all the backlist books come out in ebook form. Every book by all our favorite authors. Who doesn't want this?

However, I'm sure we are going to disagree quite a bit on what comes next.

What incentive are we to offer the publishers to spend the time and money clearing the rights issues, cover art issues, and prepping of multiple formats of these books?

These books have been out for a long time. The used paperbacks are found in garage sales for a nickel. Can you imagine the hue and cry of a backlist book that came out at a new book price? I can already hear it now....how dare those publishers charge more than the cost of the used version of the book already out.

We know that the darknet exists and is churning out these books anyway. And yet, that does not get nearly the exposure that properly released legitimate copies of these ebooks.

Consider too that the existence of readily available ebooks of back list titles will be competing with the new books the publisher is trying to sell. Why go through all the effort to put out a product that you must price low only to see that become a competitor to your products you are pricing high?

Yes, like all the rest of you, when I read a new book from a new author, I frequently then want to go back and read all of their back list. That's money on the table the publishers are leaving by not putting out the back list.

But that money has to be enough to overcome the competition to sales of the new and more profitable books.

If we truly wish the publishers to make the backlists available, we need to be willing to pay enough to make it worth the publisher's time and money.

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Old 05-18-2011, 10:35 AM   #2
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You are correct. When you publish as a business, you have finite resources, and you have a responsibility to your investors to use those resources wisely, in a way that will maximize the return on their investment. And a re-release of a backlist title will almost certainly sell less than a new release, because if that weren't likely true, it wouldn't have gone out of print. Plus, generally speaking, especially for older titles, it's probably quite a bit more work - man-hours of labor - to put an old title back in print than a new one, if only because the new one will come from the author in an electronic format, and the old one may well have to be completely re-typeset. Add in the complications of negotiating rights from an author who also knows there's more money for them in writing a new work, or worse, negotiating with an heir who finds their dream-chasing relative a little embarassing, and it gets even worse.

It's amazing to me that we see any out of print stuff reissued as ebooks.
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:54 AM   #3
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What incentive are we to offer the publishers to spend the time and money clearing the rights issues, cover art issues, and prepping of multiple formats of these books?
You mean apart from the chance to cash in again on books that have been out of print for many years and as such had pretty much no commercial value?

I'd pay a few bucks for that, but certainly not full price, no. To give you an example: I am interested in Peter Tremayne's "Sister Fidelma" books. At $11.38, I'll pass. (I usually don't pay that much for recently released books.)

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Why go through all the effort to put out a product that you must price low only to see that become a competitor to your products you are pricing high?
Because if you don't give users what they want they will turn to other means. provided they want it desperately enough. In the case of books it's libraries, yard sales, or the darknet. Legally or not, in all of these cases the publisher won't make an additional dime, either.
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:08 AM   #4
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In the case of old backlist books that don't exist in a (legal) digital format, the publishers are just being silly. They should download a decent electronic version from darknet (where available), proof-read, correct, and release cheaply. If they own the rights to all electronic distribution, they can surely do that legally, can't they? Why start from scratch when you don't have to? Keep the costs low enough and you can still turn a profit while keeping the readers happy.
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:17 AM   #5
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Why couldn't the publishers do it on a pre-order basis? In other words, they could compute how much it would cost them to create the ebook, figure out how many they'd need to sell at what price to make it profitable, and offer it for sale at a set price and see how many people place a pre-order. If they get enough pre-orders, they do the project, charge everybody's credit card and send the book. If not, not. It seems like there's no risk for anybody.

I own a Kindle, and I've clicked the 'I want to read this on Kindle' button many times while perusing the pbooks on Amazon. I don't know if it ever worked, they don't notify me, and I'm too lazy to check back. But if I were given the choice to vote with my wallet, I would.
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:21 AM   #6
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You mean apart from the chance to cash in again on books that have been out of print for many years and as such had pretty much no commercial value?
That's the point, right? There has to be an incentive to earn cash commensurate for the effort and the opportunity cost (what else they could be doing to make money).

The notion that they can just get a darknet copy and release it is folly. A legitimate business can't just put out a file. They have to do all the legwork to ensure they have the rights. There are meetings, logistics (yes, even electronic files), legal, art, marketing. All of that takes time and money. And for what? To sell a few dozen copies per year?

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I'd pay a few bucks for that, but certainly not full price, no. To give you an example: I am interested in Peter Tremayne's "Sister Fidelma" books. At $11.38, I'll pass. (I usually don't pay that much for recently released books.)
I quite agree. Why would I pay new book price for a back list title where I can get a used copy of the paper back for quite cheap? So I know why _I_ would not be eager to pay high prices. The question remains...why would a publisher go through all that effort to sell a few of these books at cheap prices? Not to mention that these cheap books will be taking the customers time, attention and money away from the profit making products the publisher wants to sell.

For a hot and ongoing series from a still viable top selling author? Sure. Put the back list out and build the audience for the next book in the series.

Even then, there's only so much money to be made. The less liklihood that such works will earn profits, the less reason publishers have to spend their time and money making such works available.

The darknet isn't going to faze them in this scenario. The "put the books out so that folks at least pay you something verses the nothing you get when someone gets a book off the darknet" would make sense if one did not figure in the opportunity cost. You have to subtract out the folks who acquire pirated books because they have no intention of paying ANY price.

Since the potential for sales of any kind are MUCH less for an out of print backlist book under any circumstances....you would likely need to charge MORE for them, not less. That is something a lot of folks won't put up with.

The result is that the buyers don't value the product enough to pay the producers enough to make it worth their while. That's a no sale situation.

And that's why we don't have wholesale conversions of all the backlist into ebooks. And never will.

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Old 05-18-2011, 11:24 AM   #7
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Why couldn't the publishers do it on a pre-order basis? In other words, they could compute how much it would cost them to create the ebook, figure out how many they'd need to sell at what price to make it profitable, and offer it for sale at a set price and see how many people place a pre-order. If they get enough pre-orders, they do the project, charge everybody's credit card and send the book. If not, not. It seems like there's no risk for anybody.
That's not a bad idea. I'm sure there are books that have more appeal than publisher's realize. Or certainly it would be a nice mechanism for indicating where the priorities should be placed.

I also like the way it works on the mindset. It helps people understand that the publishers need incentive to do their work.

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Old 05-18-2011, 11:28 AM   #8
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The notion that they can just get a darknet copy and release it is folly. A legitimate business can't just put out a file. They have to do all the legwork to ensure they have the rights.
I agree that would be folly, that's why I said start with a darknet copy and then modify it. As far as having the rights go... why would any business even be considering releasing a backlist title they don't already know they have to rights to? I was under the impression that was a given.
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:29 AM   #9
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I have recently bought books by long-dead authors in eformat at about the same price as new paperbacks or slightly more or less. And they're ones I already own in dt format, but I want the convenience of having them on my Kindle and totally portable.
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:35 AM   #10
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I agree that would be silly, that's why I said start with a darknet copy and then modify it. As far as having the right's go... why would any business even be considering releasing a backlist title they don't already know they have to rights to? I was under the impression that was a given.
There is no such thing as "knowing". You have to do the legal legwork. They have to review all the contracts and agreements. They have to FIND all the contracts and agreements. They have to ensure that no agreement that came later changed anything. They'll have to contact the authors or the authors estates. They'll have to commission new art or spend time ensuring they have sufficient rights on the existing art. They have to proof read, edit, prep.

And, of course, they aren't doing this for one book. They have thousands of books. They'd have to decide "we are moving our back list into ebooks" and then staff up a team of folks to tackle the work. There's office space needed, computers, supplies, utilities.

And for what? Compare the effort to do all this work verses the effort to acquire new works. Now compare the expected return on that effort. Put out a thousand old works that will sell a few handfuls each for low low prices, verses 50 new works that sell millions of copies at premium prices.

Where would YOU put your time and energy?

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Old 05-18-2011, 11:37 AM   #11
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I have recently bought books by long-dead authors in eformat at about the same price as new paperbacks or slightly more or less. And they're ones I already own in dt format, but I want the convenience of having them on my Kindle and totally portable.
Books that can command such prices and have a following of folks that will pay those prices....are the ones we'll see released.

The more folks argue for backlist books being priced at USED book prices....the more they make the case that it's not worth it to bring out such books in ebook form.

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Old 05-18-2011, 11:44 AM   #12
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I'm certainly not arguing for used book prices. I'm expecting slightly less than brand-new, just released MMPB prices. That's outrageous?
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:47 AM   #13
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The more folks argue for backlist books being priced at USED book prices....the more they make the case that it's not worth it to bring out such books in ebook form.
You'll always have a certain number of folks who think ebooks should cost a few bucks.



I personally have no problem paying a fair amount for backlist titles I want. The problem come in when we look at what I might think is fair and what the pubs think. I'd be perfectly happy paying say $4.99-$6.99. But $15 or more, nope.

Example: Older Star Wars books are being released in digital soon. I'd have happily picked up a few for $5-$7 for nostalgia's sake and maybe even gone as far as new MMPB pricing, but instead the first one is now listed for pre-order at $15...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...SIN=B00513HWXO

I'm sure others will buy it and think the price just fine...



When DVD's started taking off movie companies were in a similar situation and managed to put out tons of their back catalogs for reasonable prices (most of the time). Publishers are now faced with a similar challenge. If they do it right it could be a huge boon to their bottom line.
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Old 05-18-2011, 12:00 PM   #14
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I'm certainly not arguing for used book prices. I'm expecting slightly less than brand-new, just released MMPB prices. That's outrageous?
It's not a matter of outrage or not. It's a matter of there needing to be a point where the consumer's willingness to pay lines up with a publishers willingness to produce.

You have to consider that a new release MMPB is expected to sell into the tens of thousands. How many copies of a backlist book will sell in any year?

If I were the chairman of board of a publisher, I sure would be directing them to spend their time energy and money in activities that bring the highest return.

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Old 05-18-2011, 12:07 PM   #15
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I personally have no problem paying a fair amount for backlist titles I want. The problem come in when we look at what I might think is fair and what the pubs think. I'd be perfectly happy paying say $4.99-$6.99. But $15 or more, nope.
I hear you. But the less valuable people perceive these backlist works to be, the less incentive publishers have to put them out.

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Example: Older Star Wars books are being released in digital soon. I'd have happily picked up a few for $5-$7 for nostalgia's sake and maybe even gone as far as new MMPB pricing, but instead the first one is now listed for pre-order at $15...
A great example. The Star Wars books are likely to sell more than the average back list title, but still a lot less than a typical new book. For $15 each, the publisher is willing to put in that kind of effort. If the public rewards the publisher via buying the books in quantity, more backlist ebooks will come out.

If folks simply do not value back list ebooks ENOUGH, then publisher will simply spend their time on other money making activities.

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When DVD's started taking off movie companies were in a similar situation and managed to put out tons of their back catalogs for reasonable prices (most of the time). Publishers are now faced with a similar challenge. If they do it right it could be a huge boon to their bottom line.
I don't remember those backlist movies being offered for cheap.

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