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Old 08-15-2007, 04:50 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by rlauzon View Post
If you want eBooks to be a success, I encourage you to not pay money for any eBook that has DRM on it, and send a message to authors and publishers that DRM is a pipe dream and putting out an eBook with DRM on it is a bad business move.
We don't purchase the books with DRM, the publishers think ebooks aren't working. The hardware makers see ebooks are not selling, they stop making the hardware. The ebook publishers stop publishing and we the consumer lose out.
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:41 PM   #17
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I hope you won't mind if I shake my head sadly in your general direction, Lauzon .
Feel free.

As long as you don't mind me smirking and saying "I told you so" when your DRMed eBooks stop working (just like all those poor suckers who paid money at the Google Video Store).
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:46 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by rlauzon View Post
If you want eBooks to be a success, I encourage you to not pay money for any eBook that has DRM on it, and send a message to authors and publishers that DRM is a pipe dream and putting out an eBook with DRM on it is a bad business move.
Actually, even better for each ebook out there everyone should buy one drm pdf version for the pc since as we all know pdf is the most popular reading format, one drm prc/ereader version for whatever mobile device you have and supports it, one drm lrf for the Sony, and maybe even one drm imp, just not to forget the Ebk1150, and of course one drm lit since after all that one is popular too and we should encourage Microsoft since they gave us all this wonderful software after all. I would mention one drm embiid too, but sadly they went out of business

This way the authors and publishers will be encouraged to restrict even more our rights as consumers, come out with even more drm formats and do a Google video act from time to time (abandon their current drm so your ebooks are not readable anymore, and you have to repurchase them if you want to reread them).

Happily I think that most law abiding people will do just that since after all that's the law, you want to read drm on the Sony, you gotta have a lrf, you want to read on your Palm you gotta have prc or ereader, you want to read on your Ebk you gotta have imp, you want to read on your 770, oops there is no currently any drm format supported, so that device should go in the trash else be a sign of piracy were you to be seen reading on it
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Old 08-15-2007, 06:02 PM   #19
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MobileRead is a strictly "legit" site. We do not condone or encourage illegal activities here. If you want eBooks to be a success, we encourage you to buy them to send a message to the authors and publishers that this is a good way to publish.
Let me give you a 'for instance' here.

Fictionwise. The new William Gibson novel - Spook Country. $26. Available only in DRMed formats.

Amazon.com. Same book. $16 (in hardcover no less!)

Now, are you going to tell us, in complete honesty, that intelligent, honest people are going to actually pay $10 more to get less?

Because once I've read the paper version, I can re-sell it on Amazon.com and get at least $10 back. You can't do that with the DRMed eBook

Amazon.com will guarantee that the paper book will still be readable in 5 years. Fictionwise can't guarantee that any of those DRMed formats will be around in 5 years.

Simply put, buying that eBook for $26 from Fictionwise tells the publishers and authors only 1 thing: eBook buyers are morons with too much money.
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Old 08-15-2007, 06:45 PM   #20
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Extending that logic to its conclusion, all early adopters are "morons with too much money."

I choose to view the extra cost as an investment in the developing product area. Of course, I also buy most of my e-books from Baen, which is neither over-priced, nor DRMed.

But you're entitled to view it as you like, of course.
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Old 08-15-2007, 07:21 PM   #21
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I choose to view the extra cost as an investment in the developing product area. Of course, I also buy most of my e-books from Baen, which is neither over-priced, nor DRMed.
Baen is the exception. Not the rule.
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Old 08-16-2007, 12:06 AM   #22
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Yup, which is precisely why I buy most of my e-books from them.
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Old 08-16-2007, 12:37 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by rlauzon View Post
Let me give you a 'for instance' here.

Fictionwise. The new William Gibson novel - Spook Country. $26. Available only in DRMed formats.

Amazon.com. Same book. $16 (in hardcover no less!)

Now, are you going to tell us, in complete honesty, that intelligent, honest people are going to actually pay $10 more to get less?

Because once I've read the paper version, I can re-sell it on Amazon.com and get at least $10 back. You can't do that with the DRMed eBook

Amazon.com will guarantee that the paper book will still be readable in 5 years. Fictionwise can't guarantee that any of those DRMed formats will be around in 5 years.

Simply put, buying that eBook for $26 from Fictionwise tells the publishers and authors only 1 thing: eBook buyers are morons with too much money.
Sony Connect Store.. William Gibson's Spook Country $20.76. Yes, I know it's more expensive then Amazon.com, but it's cheaper then Fictionwise.

And don't forget if that's all you order from Amazon, you'll get charged $3.99 for shipping. So the price really is $19.99.

BooksOnBoard have this for $19.98. Yes, it's cheaper then Amazon (with shipping by 1 penny).

I was just looking at a different book at BooksOnBoard and the MobiPocket edition is 5 cents more then the MS Reader edition. Why is that?
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Old 08-17-2007, 11:20 PM   #24
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As a matter of fact, downloading books might be illegal in the US, but it's not the case in Europe. To prove this point, some WiFi ISP's (particularly in somewhat more rural areas) have a special service to "save" their "to-the-door" bandwidth, which involves you telling them what you want and they'll download it for you. If you ask them to DL a copy of, say, the latest movie, they'll do it and put it on a CD/DVD for you. And there's nothing the government or any agency thereof will do or COULD do against it.

And in case you're wondering, no, my ISP doesn't work that way. I do however know a few people who have such an ISP.

On a separate note, I find the whole DRM-ing idea a huge waste of time. Like regions on DVDs or protected mp4's (or the even more stupid "protection" on iPods), it's just another futile attempt which only ends up affecting people who would buy it anyway, while those who wouldn't in the first place will find ways to still get their hands on those books without paying.

What I would like to see one day is a sort of eLibrary... a yearly subscription (or a SMALL per-book fee) and ebook-files with a limited lifespan.

Last edited by ZeBuddha; 08-17-2007 at 11:30 PM.
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Old 08-18-2007, 04:32 AM   #25
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As a matter of fact, downloading books might be illegal in the US, but it's not the case in Europe.
Not in the UK, it isn't.

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What I would like to see one day is a sort of eLibrary... a yearly subscription (or a SMALL per-book fee) and ebook-files with a limited lifespan.
Sony tried the "expiring content" DRM model with the original Librie - it was a disaster. People just don't want content which disappears.
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Old 08-18-2007, 06:53 AM   #26
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As a matter of fact, downloading books might be illegal in the US, but it's not the case in Europe.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.

My understanding is that downloading the content is not illegal. It's the uploading, or "making available" part that is.

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On a separate note, I find the whole DRM-ing idea a huge waste of time. Like regions on DVDs or protected mp4's (or the even more stupid "protection" on iPods), it's just another futile attempt which only ends up affecting people who would buy it anyway, while those who wouldn't in the first place will find ways to still get their hands on those books without paying.
Exactly. And the first one to break the DRM only has to upload that broken version for everyone to get the DRM-less version.

That's why DRM cannot fulfill it's stated purpose of "protecting" the content. The reason that DRM is used is to lock customers into a company by locking their content to a particular device.
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Old 08-18-2007, 06:55 AM   #27
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Sony tried the "expiring content" DRM model with the original Librie - it was a disaster. People just don't want content which disappears.
Then why do you think that people will pay for DRMed content?

DRMed content "disappears" after a while simply because the format it's is no longer supported. Or, as the people who wasted their money on Google Video found out, when the DRM provider goes out of business.
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Old 08-19-2007, 03:46 AM   #28
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It doesn't matter what I think. DRM works - all the facts prove it, regardless of what your or my views might be. If you go for a multi-platform DRM standard you're unlikely not to be able to get a device which supports it.
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:56 AM   #29
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It doesn't matter what I think. DRM works - all the facts prove it, regardless of what your or my views might be.
And what "facts" are those?

Fact: All major DRM has been broken. CSS is broke. HD-DVD encryption is broke. WMA "protection" is broken.

It's not my "view". It's a fact.

The stated purpose of DRM is to "protect" the content. It has failed.
The real purpose of DRM is to lock consumers into a particular system. In that, it has some success (for those foolish enough to pay money to rent DRMed content).

Ask the customers of Google Video about DRM. They'll tell you that they are against it - now that they got screwed.

DRM frustrates customers. Even Microsoft's so-called "PlaysForSure", for example, doesn't play for sure on every device - heck the Zune doesn't support it!

The facts show that DRM is a negative for customers. No customer wants a product that does less.

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If you go for a multi-platform DRM standard you're unlikely not to be able to get a device which supports it.
Already proven untrue.

DRM must be proprietary and closed in order to meet its stated objective.

History has shown that properietary/closed formats eventually die.
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Old 08-19-2007, 06:10 AM   #30
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And what "facts" are those?
The simple fact that companies which sell DRM-protected eBooks have been a commercial success.

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Fact: All major DRM has been broken.
Nonsense. The leading DRM format for eBooks is MobiPocket, and that certainly hasn't been broken.

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History has shown that properietary/closed formats eventually die.
Most digital formats you buy are "proprietory, closed formats". Take, for example, the "Red Book" standard which controls how music CDs are formatted. That is a proprietory, closed format owned by Philips. You have to buy a licence from Philips in order to produce audio CDs. Are you going to claim that CDs have been a failure?
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