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Old 04-01-2011, 09:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by ardeegee View Post
I believe in property rights-- to a point. But there is a point beyond which the peasants need to uprise and introduce the aristocrats to Madame Guillotine. I have no interest in eating cake.
So everyone gets to draw their own line?
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:22 PM   #32
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So everyone gets to draw their own line?
Yep..
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:29 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by jgaiser View Post
I strip DRM, I don't use the cloud and I back up my files.

I keep wondering who you are trying to convince?
Yes, and as I understand DRM stripping scripts, they don't actually "strip" the encryption, they just use the existing credentials to read the file in clear text, then copy that clear text to another file. Much like if you opened the DRM file in an ereader, then typed the resulting text into another process.

There is nothing to prevent doing the same thing with an encrypted file in the cloud. So what's the difference? A local encrypted file or a remote encrypted file. The results are the same.
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:46 PM   #34
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I'm not interested in Googles ebooks either.
Good to know although frankly I don't care.

I was just pointing out that the whole "ebooks in the cloud" isn't a theory or a discussion, it is in existence. Knowing how it works out or if people use it is no more complicated than sitting back and watching.

BOb
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:05 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardeegee View Post
I believe in property rights-- to a point. But there is a point beyond which the peasants need to uprise and introduce the aristocrats to Madame Guillotine. I have no interest in eating cake.
To a point, huh? Maybe I should visit your house and take that same cavalier attitude toward YOUR property that you would towards the author's property.
Wouldn't like that? Thought not.

Moving this discussion to an adult level, you've really not explained why you find a cloud subscription model so hateful-except that its not your preferred model of the publisher offering it to you copy-protection free at a price that you like.
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:20 PM   #36
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Intellectual property has no real value unless it's published or performed or otherwise shared. It is not the same as other property.
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:44 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post
To a point, huh? Maybe I should visit your house and take that same cavalier attitude toward YOUR property that you would towards the author's property.
Wouldn't like that? Thought not.

Moving this discussion to an adult level, you've really not explained why you find a cloud subscription model so hateful-except that its not your preferred model of the publisher offering it to you copy-protection free at a price that you like.
Because I don't like my reading habits being tracked (and being used to market to) every page I read?
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:46 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by stonetools View Post
To a point, huh? Maybe I should visit your house and take that same cavalier attitude toward YOUR property that you would towards the author's property.
Wouldn't like that? Thought not.
Come on over-- you are free to copy anything that you please. Give me some advanced notice, and I'll even build a straw man for you and put a sign around his neck saying "digital files are the exact same as physical objects."

Quote:
Moving this discussion to an adult level, you've really not explained why you find a cloud subscription model so hateful-except that its not your preferred model of the publisher offering it to you copy-protection free at a price that you like.
You've had it explained to you over and over and over the problems with cloud storage-- since you can string words together you can't be too stupid to understand, so it is utterly obvious that you are a troll with an agenda. I'll say it again-- if publishers try to move all their books to a cloud model, then I want to see publishers destroyed.
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:47 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob View Post
Good to know although frankly I don't care.

I was just pointing out that the whole "ebooks in the cloud" isn't a theory or a discussion, it is in existence. Knowing how it works out or if people use it is no more complicated than sitting back and watching.

BOb

Google doesn't quite have the whole model yet. They still have to tweak the HTML 5.0 code so as to allow offline reading of an ebook without a continuous connection. They were already almost there with Google Gears, so they are clearly working on it.They ( or someone) will probably have the problem licked soon.
Once they do, I expect they will roll out a cloud subscription model pretty soon. (They may be planning to do it concurrently with their music subscription service, which most people expect later this year).
I think Amazon and Apple are likely to do something in this space too. I'm pretty sure that at least some publishers would be 100 percent behind them.
The issue is not whether the folks on MR will like this model . ( Apparently the MR gods have decreed that there is only one model that the publishers can offer -offer a downloadable, DRM free copy of an ebook without any effective precautions to prevent theft,or "unauthorized copying", as MRers euphemistically call it)
What I see is publishers offering several different models. They might push the cloud subscription model hardest, since it affords authors and publishers the most protection, which is apparently anathema to the anti DRM true believers. The average customer will decide which model they like- much to the apprehension of the true believers, since they may prefer the "wrong" model.
If the cloud subscription model offers a smoother, better experience than the "download and possess" model, that's what will prevail. Netflix did this in movies and Rhapsody, etc has done it in music. It is entirely possible that SOMEONE can do this in ebooks.

Last edited by stonetools; 04-01-2011 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 04-01-2011, 11:04 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilotbob View Post
I was just pointing out that the whole "ebooks in the cloud" isn't a theory or a discussion, it is in existence. Knowing how it works out or if people use it is no more complicated than sitting back and watching.
In most, but not all, cases Google ebooks can also be downloaded as ePubs. These can be DRM-free or DRM-ridden, depending on the ebook. This provides a backdoor in case Google books ever closes down.

Is there a music store that is entirely cloud based (no single file per song download)? Has such a store ever gone out of business?

I have not used it, but I have the impression that Pandora is a subscription based music service similar to what stonetools suggested for cloud-based ebooks. If Pandora ever closed down, the subscription is gone but it was always clear you did not "own" songs. This model seems better suited to music than books though.
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Old 04-01-2011, 11:05 PM   #41
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You've had it explained to you over and over and over the problems with cloud storage-- since you can string words together you can't be too stupid to understand, so it is utterly obvious that you are a troll with an agenda. I'll say it again-- if publishers try to move all their books to a cloud model, then I want to see publishers destroyed.

Well it is utterly obvious that you can't read , since I mentioned several times that the publishers will certainly continue to offer a purchase option beside the cloud subscription option.

AS for the name calling, well I understand that's par for the course whenever anyone questions the Mobile Read Forum's main religious tenet. I expect that someone will come along shortly to accuse me of working for Google, since I've mentioned that Google will likely implement this first. Oh well...
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Old 04-01-2011, 11:20 PM   #42
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We can all thank the pirates who are the ones forcing those ebooks in the clouds upon us.
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Old 04-01-2011, 11:21 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wodin View Post
Yes, and as I understand DRM stripping scripts, they don't actually "strip" the encryption, they just use the existing credentials to read the file in clear text, then copy that clear text to another file. Much like if you opened the DRM file in an ereader, then typed the resulting text into another process.

There is nothing to prevent doing the same thing with an encrypted file in the cloud. So what's the difference? A local encrypted file or a remote encrypted file. The results are the same.
How could it work since you can't get access to the key? There is no key on your device when the file is in the browser.
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Old 04-01-2011, 11:25 PM   #44
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In most, but not all, cases Google ebooks can also be downloaded as ePubs. These can be DRM-free or DRM-ridden, depending on the ebook. This provides a backdoor in case Google books ever closes down.

Is there a music store that is entirely cloud based (no single file per song download)? Has such a store ever gone out of business?

I have not used it, but I have the impression that Pandora is a subscription based music service similar to what stonetools suggested for cloud-based ebooks. If Pandora ever closed down, the subscription is gone but it was always clear you did not "own" songs. This model seems better suited to music than books though.

There are many books that I want to own , because I will want to read them over and over. Indeed, there are books that I want to own in physical form. That's why there will always be a purchase option for both P and E books.
However, I've borrowed many books from the library that I have read only once. Indeed, I have OWNED many books that I have read just once,(and don't intend to read again).
I think there are a lot of folks out there who, if there is a book that they will want to reread, will simply buy a pbook. Indeed, for permanence, security and long term assurance of access, you can't beat a pbook. For just casual fiction reading, those folks will go with a subscription service , in which they' ll read their ebooks the way people listen to a music subscription service.

Last edited by stonetools; 04-01-2011 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 04-01-2011, 11:25 PM   #45
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The insults are totally unnecessary folks. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them stupid or give you the right to call them stupid. Nor does it give you carte blanche to call people religious zelots because they want the freedom to use their purchases as they wish.

If there is more to say on the topic, which I'm not sure there is, do it without the insults.
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