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Old 07-12-2007, 10:15 AM   #1
Dr. Drib
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Chaucer, Geoffrey: The Canterbury Tales. v1. 12 July 07

Well, I'm not a Middle English expert -; I don't even know who translated this into "current" version, but it sure wasn't Spike Jones.

I had a lot of trouble with this: TITLES would not give me page breaks. There are a number of fragments, of course, since Chaucer did not finish his masterpiece, so please don't think I inadvertently cut something. I also, to err on the safe side, created a page break for every single title, because of the problem with the TITLES attribute. I did go over every CHAPTER and they now begin on a new page.

I have those hanging TOC lines, but some chapters are really long and there's a bug (or a non-implimentation?) in TOC so that I can't change to a different attribute and...well, some of you may know the story, so I won't rehash it here.

I don't know how well this version reads, but I'm going to load it onto my Reader and give it a try.

I had trouble finding a version that looked complete and was in one piece, as was this version.

I IMPLORE YOU: IF YOU SEE SOMETHING WRONG, LET ME KNOW ABOUT IT SO I CAN TRY TO FIX IT. I KEEP ALL BACKUPS OF MY WORKING FILES.

I hope you enjoy this.

Don

P.S.: This version (and my formatting) I know isn't the cleanest looking version. Any suggestions will be helpful. It almost looks like a mess, due to the combination of poetic and prose elements. PLEASE LET ME KNOW, and I'll try to make it look better.
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Old 07-12-2007, 11:13 AM   #2
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This is great. I love this work and I too am not a Middle English wonk.

There are sections (start and Nun's Tale) in a future Harvard Classics volume but to have all he wrote is great.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:59 AM   #3
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All I can say is that I'll leave this one to people who like this kind of thing .

I'm absolutely not putting down your efforts, Don, but to me, "Chaucer in modern English" is as dreadful as re-writing Shakespeare in modern English would be. You're losing his original language, and what's the point of reading Chaucer other than for the beauty of his language?

Middle English is not THAT different to modern English. It's not like reading "Beowolf" or "Sir Gawain and the Green Night" which, although written in a language called "English", are essentially incomprensible other than to scholars. Chaucer is easily understandable to a modern reader with a little bit of practice.

As I say, please forgive me if I sound as though I'm putting down your efforts; I'm certainly not. This is just a "pet hate" of mine, to "rewrite" a literary classic to make it "easier" for the reader. Rather like "Reader's Digest Condensed Books", IMHO
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:05 AM   #4
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I think we have to agree to dissagree on this one [smile]

Shakespeare is not Middle English, but Chaucer is.

When I studied him in Middle English, it was with notes and sidebars to the language.

To my way of thinking, Shakespeare can still be read, with the occasional word that needs to be looked up. Also, delving into Socio-Historical criticism helps one to understand the particular issues of an age.

I don't know who the "translator" is on this edition; but, of course, it's in the Public Domain so it must have some years accumulated on it.

I also agree with you in part (by stretching an analogy here) that ANY translation loses something, and often to the detriment of the work. Some notable exceptions, of course, come to mind: Constance Garnett, Gregory Rabassa, Scott Moncrieff come to mind in that they added their own poetic qualities to the work in translation. Every language has its own embedded social constructs and history, and to translate from one langauge to another is often to lose not only those social constructs but the poetic elements that make up the author's style. It's a balancing act. (My closest experience with translation comes from Doctoral work done in English where we had to learn two foreign languages for research purposes: I chose French and German. Part of our work was to translate passages into English; and, of course, when we wrote our 30-40 papge reserach papers [in other classes], we endulged in translation work to a certain extent.)

In this particular modern updating of a classic work, I notice that many poetic elements seem forced. I've read better translations into modern English, but these aren't in the public domain

But you make a good point in that nothing can take away from the original in that every translation is simply that: it's a movement away from the original. But ask yourself this: Why do we engage in translation work? My answer to this rhetorical question is this: To make a work more accessible to more people.

One of the beauties of language is that it's a "living" entity - an "organism" that expands and contracts with use. As long as a people use language, it evolves and changes. It reflects the age upon which it depends. When new words are added to the OED, or when words move from slang to general coinage, it's not because a committee authorized that change. Rather, it's because those words cannot be contained between the pages of a book.

Anyway, I do RESPECT your opinion, Harry, I hope you know that!

Warning: You are about to encounter a boldfaced sentence below:

I feel other opinions and voices are needed and welcome on this subject other than mine and Harry's.


Don

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Old 07-13-2007, 06:27 AM   #5
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I'm not against translations which let people read books that they otherwise wouldn't be able to understand. I'm grateful for translations which let me read authors like Verne and Dumas - my French isn't up to reading the original.

I guess I just feel that - perhaps with the aid of notes - Chaucer isn't that tough to understand. But that's purely a personal opinion; I suppose that reading "classic" in any form is better than not reading it at all .
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:40 AM   #6
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Chaucer is fun to read, especially the tale [pun intended]

of the kissing of the arse out the window. -- Hahahaha

That's probably what got me interested in Chaucer; and I read Chaucer in Middle English!

I'm not up to ANY long reading in French or German - I still don't know it that well - just the occasional phrase while reading Derridian theory on literature and language -- hahahaha!! If you want torture (never mind Chaucer!!!), try reading Derrida. In Engish! This is when a prayere really is needed.

OFF-TOPIC FLASH: I've now been studying Spanish for about one year, primarily because of a Peruvian woman I've fallen in love with who lives in Peru. I visited Peru - Miraflores and surrounding districts in Lima - last year and fell in love with the culture.

Wish me luck!

Don

P.S.: Harry, what're you working on, what projects?


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I'm not against translations which let people read books that they otherwise wouldn't be able to understand. I'm grateful for translations which let me read authors like Verne and Dumas - my French isn't up to reading the original.

I guess I just feel that - perhaps with the aid of notes - Chaucer isn't that tough to understand. But that's purely a personal opinion; I suppose that reading "classic" in any form is better than not reading it at all .

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Old 07-13-2007, 06:46 AM   #7
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Is this an "unexpurgated" translation, by the way - I haven't checked. Some bits of Chaucer are amazingly rude .

Best of luck with your Spanish. I'm a bit of a "language nut" myself. I read Latin and Ancient Greek for "fun" (yes, I know it's a deeply sad thing to do...), although the only "modern" language I speak at all well, other than English, is German.
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:59 AM   #8
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Yes, it is "unexpurgated."

-- At least, I checked a couple of parts and it appears to be an "unexpurgated" version.

I am always amazed at people who have a facility for other langauges, and you seem to be one of those. Amazing.

Thank you about Spanish. We just said those 3 magic words yesterday afternoon to each other. (Say, where's the "happy feet" icon on this site?!!)




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Is this an "unexpurgated" translation, by the way - I haven't checked. Some bits of Chaucer are amazingly rude .

Best of luck with your Spanish. I'm a bit of a "language nut" myself. I read Latin and Ancient Greek for "fun" (yes, I know it's a deeply sad thing to do...), although the only "modern" language I speak at all well, other than English, is German.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:08 AM   #9
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P.S.: Harry, what're you working on, what projects?
Unfortunately I'm not at the moment.

There's a "distance learning" university in the UK called the Open University through which I've been studying for a "Classics" degree for some years in my spare time. I'm going away on a week-long "Summer School" for that at the end of next week, and I'm way behind on the work I need to do for it, so sadly no time for creating books at the moment!
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:48 AM   #10
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I feel other opinions and voices are needed and welcome on this subject other than mine and Harry's.


Don
Looked at the preface to the wife of bath's tale in high school -- in a penguin edition that had the original middle english on the left page and a modern english translation on the right. It felt like the best of both worlds for me: you could (try to) read the middle english, get the flavour and flow of the text, but if you were getting stuck with spelling or vocabulary, flip to the other page and check out the translation. Lots of fun, really liked the side-by-side presentation. Would be quite tricky to arrange on the reader, though, except in a .pdf format with pre-determined page breaks with 2-columns and the reader on its side....

Anyway, thought I'd chime in as I *did* read the bold-faced sentence.

Cheers,

ScS
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:19 AM   #11
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Dr. Drib, this is the most wonderful novel I've ever read from a Peruvian writer: A World for Julius. In my opinion, it deserves a place among the best novels of the second half of the 20th century. I enjoyed it that much.

Sorry, but I couldn't find a digital edition.
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:37 AM   #12
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THANK YOU, Andanzas. I'll find out more about that today at Borders

I appreciate that so much!

Right now, I'm also working on Vargas Llosa's novel, "La Casa Verde," ["The Green House"].

Actually, I'm a HUGE fan of Latin American writing. What initially turned me onto this form of writing was Asturias's novel, "Mulatta." Asturias won the Nobel Prize in Literature back in 1967.

Again, thanks so much for mentioning this, since I'm not familiar with this particular title.

Don


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Dr. Drib, this is the most wonderful novel I've ever read from a Peruvian writer: A World for Julius. In my opinion, it deserves a place among the best novels of the second half of the 20th century. I enjoyed it that much.

Sorry, but I couldn't find a digital edition.
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Old 07-13-2007, 11:20 AM   #13
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Are you reading La casa verde in Spanish? If so, your Spanish must be really good, because it's a highly expermental novel. I'm impressed!

I am a huge fan of Vargas Llosa, but I haven't read La casa verde yet, which is weird because I've read almost all of his major works. He is probably a better writer than Bryce Echenique, but Un mundo para Julius (A World for Julius) is a very unique and tender novel. I hope you enjoy it!
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Old 07-13-2007, 11:44 AM   #14
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Nooooo, I mis-wrote

I'm reading it in English. (Sorry.)

Also, I'm not "working" on it as I stated - but, rather, reading it. ("Working" might unintentionally give the impression that I'm busy formatting it. -- Hahaha.)

I've read a lot of Llosa. You remember that he actually ran for President of Peru?

I hope he wins the Nobel Prize in Literature; he's a major contender.

Don




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Are you reading La casa verde in Spanish? If so, your Spanish must be really good, because it's a highly expermental novel. I'm impressed!

I am a huge fan of Vargas Llosa, but I haven't read La casa verde yet, which is weird because I've read almost all of his major works. He is probably a better writer than Bryce Echenique, but Un mundo para Julius (A World for Julius) is a very unique and tender novel. I hope you enjoy it!
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